How we can navigate the pandemic with courage and hope Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks

[Applause]

hello everyone.welcome is the latest of

our Ted connects a daily conversation

with you the global Ted community in

this strange era of the virus goodness I

hope everyone’s doing okay you got a

safe weekend that you’re managing this

crazy emotional roller coaster we’re all

on that your loved ones are safe and

you’re finding Tom at least some new

ways to engage that you hadn’t thought

about before this all happened

I don’t know we’re all trying to figure

out new things together by not touching

your face like I just did I’m still by

the end of this I swear I will have this

under control or me maybe not

so last week I was joined here by

Whitney Pennington Rogers you’ll be back

really soon but because we’re it looks

like we’re going to do this for a while

yet we thought it’d be good to share

with you some of the broader faces among

the Ted curation team it takes a lot of

people it turns out to put together wise

voices from all around the world and

today my co-host is the head of that

team Ted’s head of curation Helen

Walters Helen where are you hi great to

see you oh there you are that’s great

great to have you here Helen Helen I’ve

been working at Ted for many years now

and she really you know she’s created

this extraordinary team of curators

specializing in these different areas

and holds the thread together the

strategic direction Helen it’s been

great working with you you do swear a

lot you promised me that maybe live here

you’re you may succeed in controlling

that but we’ll see now I make no

promises at all

not a one oh how are you how have you

survived

we can want you what what struck you

this weekend about this hope is our

situation we’re in

I mean bizarre cold bizarre situation is

right I am in Brooklyn I am here with my

family

and we had a very quiet weekend the

social distancing measures are in place

as I went to the pharmacy this weekend

and you see they taped out moments on

the street where you can stand but it

was pretty quiet here I actually stayed

away from the news as much as possible I

kind of can’t really handle read in the

news so I’m getting news via various

groups that I’m in and also I’m noticing

whenever whenever a news announcement is

made there’ll be a flurry of incoming

texts and communications from my family

in England and elsewhere of like

everything okay how you doing

and so I’m trying to keep my sanity that

way but how about you well I mean

unfortunately haven’t been giving our

friend the news and it doesn’t make you

lots of emotions of leading and going

clipping frustration including some hope

like there seems to be some kind of

consensus emerging among many experts as

far as I can see of you know how

countries can tackle this you know it’s

some form of shut down really hard

probably for at least two months but

then you can probably bring people back

to us so long as you have massive

testing available so that you can

quickly find out if someone’s sick live

that in the bud and then maybe also

there’s a change in conversation about

face masks as well which is interesting

in that like we were all told in the

West don’t don’t bother with them

they’re not they don’t really help you

then I’ll protect you dudes like there’s

a lot of people shifting on that now

that as a group if we wear them we

reduce the chances of spreading the bug

that certainly seems to have played a

role in in Asia anyway that’ll be an

interesting conversation for a future

one of these but I am now going to get

out of your hair and let you introduce

today’s extraordinary guests so do you

see one agent thank you so much for

getting out of my hair Chris I’ve been

waiting for that moment for some time

Allah at last so it gives me great

pleasure to welcome our guest today he

is a spiritual leader he’s the four

Chief Rabbi of the United debreu

congregations of the Commonwealth so I

had to read that to check I didn’t get

it wrong he’s a writer

he’s a thinker he’s a moral leader he’s

just an all-round wonderful person I

have had the pleasure of working with

him on his TED talk back in 2017 I’d

love to welcome rabbi sacks Alan it’s

great to be with you sorry it’s in these

circumstances I’m equally sorry but you

know somehow the technology has arrived

at exactly the right time for us to stay

in touch

virtually if not physically and this is

one of the things you do at Ted

reach out to so many people and connect

them with one another well we’re so

grateful that you can join us where

exactly are you right now and most

importantly how are you well I’m in my

study in our home in golden screen on

the edge of the Jewish ghetto and doing

fine actually I kind of you know and I’m

used to being the lonely man of faith

kind of thing so you know in a sense I

am used to it but hearing the real real

pain of our community and of the country

going through this terrible ordeal yeah

it’s real so back in 2017 you opened

your TED talk with a quote from Thomas

Paine referring to these at the times

that try men’s souls and pain of course

was referring to British tyranny in the

18th century and you were referring to

divided political times in the 21st it’s

it’s not really a stretch sadly to shift

that from politics to the pandemic but I

wonder can you give us a sense of what

you make of these times and more

importantly well you make of our

response to these times well I apologize

for 1776 I really do apologize

lin-manuel Miranda got his own back

deftly and beautifully done I think this

is a traumatic time for the entire globe

and people are going through every

dimension of suffering there is physical

psychological economic the uncertainty

and anxiety about the future they’re not

knowing how long the pandemic will last

they’re not knowing how and when or if

the economy will ever get back in shape

again these are horrific times these are

a collective trauma and the real

distinction is between events that you

live through and events that change you

and I’m hoping that this will come under

the second category because they really

ought to changes it’s not as if we were

in great shape just before all this

began Lobley we weren’t nationally we

weren’t our politics were dysfunctional

our economics for inequitable and

sometimes iniquitous so we were in a bad

place and now we’ve come through a bad

experience together I think there will

be a collective resolve to move to a

better place in the future do you wrote

a piece at the weekend talking about the

how the response to the corona virus

could in fact be similar to the response

we saw after World War two and in

Britain of course the that response

included the launch of the National

Health Service which there’s something I

think many countries are sorely in need

of today but if you had your druthers

how would you see leaders step up to

both deal with the pandemic in its

moment and then also in its aftermath

what would you like to see the leaders

leaders do well don’t forget this

there’s a difference between two kinds

of leadership the leadership that gets

you through the crisis and the

leadership that rebuilds after the

crisis one of the strangest phenomena of

all was the fact that Winston Churchill

whom everyone knew had

can Britain triumphantly through World

War two was not elected as Prime

Minister mediately after the war yes he

was a great leader for war he was not

necessarily a great leader for peace I

don’t think any political leader in the

world right now has a mind to think long

and therefore they will get through the

crisis living from day to day being

guided by scientific experts and we’ve

seen the rebirth of respect for

expertise which is not unimportant but I

hope a new kind of political leader is

about to emerge the young people who

really will be changed by this I don’t

say I’ve got to give back and the first

thing they have to look at is a National

Health Service I mean we in Britain know

the National Health Service is being

overwhelmed at the moment but to think

that 27 million Americans don’t have

health care don’t have health insurance

I mean I’m sorry that is morally

unintelligible to me and so somehow or

other we need a new politics but the day

after and this will come from places

we’re not expecting they certainly not

going to come from the existing

political leadership but I think that

they will have to look at it they’ll

also have to have to look at the economy

as well first of all we were building up

an unsustainable level of individual and

national debt anyway and all of that is

seeing companies collapsing all over the

world

it was untenable before this happened

and finally we’re seeing an American

president you know sending out checks to

people the beginning of what you’ve

spoken about in Ted before you’ve had

speakers dealing with this a guaranteed

basic income who knows if that’s what I

gained to emerge from it new things are

going to emerge no existing leader is

going to have the headspace to see this

but I expect a new kind of political

leadership to emerge in every country

where people have really taken this to

heart

and I suppose the problem is that we

know one cannot take this to heart right

this is really impacting everybody and

some of what’s alarming about some of

the antagonistic rhetoric that we’re

seeing say between the US and China or

you know national leaders trying to

close their borders or look inwards is

that the virus doesn’t care about

borders it doesn’t care about anything

I’m interested in do you see any grass

roots or shoots of this type of

leadership emerging or has anything have

you seen anything that’s given you hope

that this might emerge or that maybe

there are people who might even be able

to overtake some of the national leaders

who are who are maybe not doing what we

might think of as the best job

look I when I was a student which is an

awfully long time ago the early Jurassic

age we had 767 the Six Day War I’m

Jewish we had this nightmare and the

weeks leading up to it we who had been

born after the Holocaust with thinking

given NASA’s threats that we were about

to witness another whole course now that

happened in my first year at university

I think if it hadn’t happened I would be

an accountant I realize you know the

world has changed we can’t you can’t go

through an experience like that and stay

the same so it happens to people when

they say you know we can’t go back to

the way things were so I do see this

happening I do not think the political

leadership of let’s say the United

States and China are behaving terribly

responsibly if the world is suffering

now’s not the time to play ping pong for

years now about the need for a balance

between rights and responsibilities and

I wonder how do you define our personal

responsibility in this moment I think

good

to ask I know it’s a difficult one is

what does this moment ask of me that it

wouldn’t have done at some other time so

I’m doing stuff that I never did before

I’m using I’m using FaceTime live I’m

using zoom I never heard of zoom before

I’m using every means of communication I

can to communicate to as many people as

possible at different level and that is

what I hear me being called to our

neighbors are doing incredible things

just being neighborly because we’ve got

old people living alone here and they’re

just knocking on the doors of getting in

touch with them and so on just listen to

the call what does this moment ask of me

why was I put in this place at this time

I love that and I think it’s one of the

things that has been heartening about

this crisis is seeing how the community

steps up I’m in Brooklyn and New York

and just seeing how people are leaving

notes for neighbors and just checking in

to see if they’re okay or if they need

anything if we can you know those who

are able to go out to the pharmacy or

whatever can go pick something up it

kind of is heartening even though we’re

all scared you know everybody is

frightened of kind of what’s happening

and what’s to come and it’s this weird

hinterland that we’re all in where you

know you kind of know that a crisis is

coming even if it hasn’t hit but we’re

seeing the news and seeing the

overwhelmed you know health services do

you as a spiritual leader I’m sorry go

ahead

no I was just going to say my my one of

our grandchildren our eight year old

granddaughter decided on her own the

knock on the doors of all the houses in

her Street keeping her social distance

and when the door is open saying we live

at number 12 if you need anything come

and knock at our door and I thought you

know that’s what an eight-year-old does

spontaneously I’m feeling quite proud at

the moment

but I think that the there’s a universal

fear that everyone is experiencing even

if they’re not experiencing in the same

way and and fear can be paralyzing do

you in your experience what what advice

do you have for people who are trying to

overcome that fear who are trying to

kind of live in the communal space and

not just retreat to themselves well look

I mean the thing to do is to reach out

in any way that you can because we know

that reaching out and helping someone

makes you feel better makes you feel

more confident boosts your immune system

speeds your recovery from any illness

huge amount of research has been done on

the health benefits of altruism and and

sometimes it’s nothing but a smile at a

passerby at six or eight feet distance

sometimes it’s nothing

sometimes it’s sharing a funny story on

whatsapp you know we had some friends we

went on a holiday with got twenty two

twenty three friends we went on a

holiday in New Zealand a few months ago

they live all over the world and they’ve

been bombarding one another with little

photographs and videos and stuff and so

on that everyone has found a way of

getting out of their confinement

you know I there’s a line in Psalms you

know I animates a karateka I called you

God from my confinement and you answered

me with expenses sometimes those

expenses just psychological but knowing

that you’ve communicated with somebody

made someone smile that’s all you have

to do how do you so you’ve written a lot

we talked about it in your talk and

you’ve written about it in your latest

book about the need to move from I to we

and I have a couple of questions around

this but first of all I wonder if you

can describe exactly what you mean by

that shift I mean that any social animal

needs to be able to do two things

needs to engage in competition and

cooperation without competition die

without cooperation you can’t have a

group you can’t have a society and we

cannot survive on top we have today two

very powerful arenas of competition the

market and the state politics and

economically the market competition for

wealth the state competition for power

but what we’ve been losing is our arenas

of cooperation families communities

charities volunteering and all the rest

of it those things where you search not

for self-interest but for the common

good those things have been weakening

over the past several decades and the

end result is societies become much more

abrasive and unequal and so therefore

how do we move away from that I mean do

we did we need to have such a shift such

a seismic shift such as this in order to

shake us out of our kind of complacency

well I always make sure we observe the

difference by between asking why is this

happened and what then should we do

right this has not happened in order to

make us we conscious it did not happen

in order to boost the sales of my leg at

his book the virus mutates that’s how it

things happen so I’m not asking why this

happened I’m saying now that this has

happened let us really see if it is

unleashed let energies as it has because

communities have grown up I mean virtual

communities have grown up at a speed

that nobody ever thought they would

happen the National Health Service asked

for volunteers to be health auxiliaries

they had over half a million volunteers

in one day now you know that’s quite

something we have a we have a

conservative prime minister right now

you remember Margaret Thatcher famously

said there is no such thing as society

today Boris Johnson said you know what

there is such a thing as society after

all but that’s a big change

chipping in with a couple of questions

from the room and first of all what a

question from our tech department who

said we’re getting bit of noise from the

microphone rubbing against your collar

if there’s a way of smoothing the

microphone away from your collar I don’t

know whether you can even do that it’s

not a big deal doesn’t matter but Chris

I I met you halfway I’m not wearing a

tie anyway I was doing this the first

day and they asked me to correct but

that’s the small thing here’s a question

though after this is from Jennifer on on

after the 1918 flu epidemic the world

did change but not sure for the better

because the rise of fascist ideologies

why should we be optimistic that the

present disruption is leading us to a

better place

Chris I have to make a distinction which

is readily important between optimism

and hope optimism is the belief that

things will get better hope is the

belief that if we work hard enough

together we can make things better it

needs no courage only a certain naivety

to be an optimist but it needs sometimes

a great deal of courage to have hope

I’ve tried to bring a message of hope

not of optimism we know that World War

one was supposed to be the war to end

all wars and it didn’t end all war we

know that the flu epidemic which they

have taken between 20 and 50 million

lives did not suddenly create a we

society we know all the bad things that

happen the great crash the thirties

depression and so on and in the end the

explosion of evil that was World War two

though I’m not being optimistic here

there could be another road that people

will go down a nationalist road

which sees the rise of far-right parties

in Europe and the breakup of the

European Union

further tensions between the United

States and China heaven alone knows what

Russia will do in all this mix there are

horrendous possibilities here that’s why

we need to work very hard together to

make sure that we take the possible good

benefits out of this number one the

understanding that the whole of humanity

has been brought to its knees by one

tiny virus we are we feel the we of

humanity as a whole number two that in

the end the only effective political

force that’s worked is the nation let’s

have one nation and not a divided nation

and number three we’ve seen the growth

locally of community spirit like we’ve

never had before that’s the weave

community I don’t think any of these

things are automatic I think they will

require determination wisdom and great

courage they will require leadership and

by the way that question wasn’t from

Jennifer on Facebook Jennifer this is a

member of our tech team before I did the

question to me though but here’s another

question from from Facebook which is

what coping strategies can religion

offer in the current circumstances well

prayer helps it actually helps if you

want specifically to know what to say

read The Book of Psalms book of Psalms

is the greatest source of comfort it

certainly was to me when I’ve been ill

was to my late father when he went

through the many operations at the end

of his life I think faith that God is

with you giving you the strength to come

through this faith that you place your

life in his hands these are powerful

things they helped me go through a

number of life challenging illnesses

that marrying the right woman of course

but I mean

I think faith helps the other thing

that’s worth listening to is now that so

many people are living in isolation

somebody had the bright idea of asking

that and Sharansky there was in pretty

much solitary confinement for nine years

by the KGB what did he do to stay sane

and he came up with some pretty good

principles that I that I think he want

to share with you number one focus on

what you can control

don’t worry about the rest number two

keep your mind active number three never

lose your sense of humor number four

think of the group that you’re a member

of even if you can’t physically be in

their company and number five think of

the bigger picture and for him too that

came from the book of Psalms last

question

and you mentioned prayer someone’s

asking would you be willing to say no to

this would you be willing to lead us in

a prayer or invocation offering you help

or guide us to get on the right track

maybe our or towards the end of this hmm

God on high please be with us all in

this hour of trial heal those who is

sick give strength to those who give

them comfort be with those heroes and

heroines who manage our medical systems

the doctors the nurses the medical

auxiliaries if strength to all those who

sustain our essential services have

stock our supermarkets who dispense the

medicines we need extend to us your love

remove from us all hate let us be joined

in this time of trial in our sense of

belonging to one another and help us and

this is over the Builder better more

just and safer world Thank You rabbi

Ellen it’s over to you yeah I’m here I’m

here thank you so much for doing that

that was beautiful

though I think it’s important when you

talk about the you know you mentioned

the healthcare workers you mentioned the

people who are stocking shelves who are

out there every day despite the the

recommendations that we social distance

or you know in certain cases we just

stay home and don’t go out so I guess my

concern and worries are with them and

how they maintain calm and peace time

when they are sustaining all of us how

how can we help them how can we think

about doing what is right for those

people and they’re also of course there

are cultures in which social distancing

is just simply not possible it’s you

know society was designed in such a way

that you know that social distancing is

not possible so I guess I’m thinking

about this a lot and I wonder what your

thoughts are about how we can help or

how we can think about that it’s

tremendously helpful for employers and

if not employers then the government to

provide them with or whatever safety

equipment they can have whether it’s

gloves whether it’s face masks whether

face must have been found to work and so

and it’s appalling that governments were

not prepared for this and because South

Korea and China and Hong Kong and

Singapore had had SARS and other

epidemics recently they really were

prepared and you can see the difference

in state but otherwise you know it’s

really really important that we help

those people by keeping our social

distance otherwise we are a health

hazard to them and and and that’s just

incredibly important so that’s the best

we can do to make sure that they are

prioritized with the provision of

whatever safety to proceed especially

the doctors nurses and hospitals you

know in Italy there’s been a huge

percentage of the casualties have been

doctors nurses I mean that’s really

tragic

and in Britain people are working very

hard very fast make sure it doesn’t

happen here what do you think is the

moral imperative for executives or for

leaders in that in that position who you

know or maybe running the warehouses or

overseeing the places where these people

are working well I mean here the whole

wartime ethos is absolutely essential

chief executives have to be down there

on on the ground with the workers you

know they can’t be running companies

from a distance they have to be there

sharing the same risks suffering the

same fears as their employees otherwise

I think you know they’re just morally

unfit for the job there’s certainly

there I think related to the the we and

the I that you have that you have

written about there’s a kind of a rise

over the last decades of individualism

and the kind of a sense that personal

freedom matters more than anything else

I think that we’ve all seen unfortunate

stories of people who are putting their

personal freedom above others what do

you say to them how and how can if

personally if we see people who are

perhaps not making taking all these

restrictions seriously should we get

involved like how do how do we respond

to seeing people out in society who are

not perhaps taking this as seriously as

we believe everyone should it’s a

serious problem and interestingly we

have we have some really good social

science research on this there’s

something called the social goods game I

don’t know if you’ve come across this

let me explain there three players are

given let’s say $30 each and they are

told that they can contribute as much as

they want to a communal chest and the

money will then be doubled and returned

to them three three people are sitting

around the table there

been given $30 they each put $30 in the

communal chest that is doubled to a

hundred and eighty dollars and they all

get $60 left the next round somebody

decides to be clever and he doesn’t put

his thirty dollars in but the other two

do there now they’re $60 double to 120

everyone gets 40 so to get 40 with the

third who didn’t put his money in now

has 70 he gains by putting self-interest

above the common good what happens the

short answer is within a few rounds

everyone stops putting money in the

collective then though common good

disappears number two when asked if they

would be willing to pay money to punish

the non contributor they all agree

they’re willing to make a sacrifice to

punish the guy who puts his

self-interest over the common good so we

have huge research on this though what

happens of course is that if lots of

people panic buy and hoard and stockpile

supermarket goods or drugs or what have

you or they don’t keep their social

distance then we all suffer the whole

thing suffers that’s why everyone is in

lockdown in Britain today because people

weren’t following the rules so the whole

common good disappears because a few

people pursue their own interests the

truth is that in the fullness of time

somebody’s going to take their own back

on those non-compliance individuals

because everyone suffers though do get

involved and less getting involved means

getting less than 6 feet close to them

which case look after your own health

first get involved but stay back yeah

carry on go ahead oh no go ahead go

ahead I was just going to say I think

it’s worth if we will take care of

ourselves and our own behaviors the

for really applying ourselves to others

of course you know that that’s kind of

how we can at least contribute

meaningfully to what’s happening in

society what they say on the plane first

fix your own bars before fixing someone

else’s that’s right I mean the numbers

that were seeing rabbi up so I watering

Li horrifying we’re seeing them coming

out of countries such as Italy they’re

happening in the US right now it’s the

one thing that seems clear is that death

will be full of all going to have a

closer connection to death do know than

later and generally death I mean of

course it comes for us all but generally

death is more of a personal experience

you know we kind of we we deal with it

in our own ways and I don’t think in

this generation we’ve had to deal with

death at this scale how like what words

of advice or wisdom do you have to share

to help us as we all collectively have

to manage it not with the records and

our families but you know the direct

deaths of many millions potentially of

people around the world it’s terribly

scary what’s happening and the scale of

what’s happening but in some respects is

even worse because I mean I had to do a

funeral we could to we go work you know

the normally there would have been

hundreds of people a well-known

well-loved individual everyone would

have wanted to come to see them off and

almost nobody was there because it was

much of a health risk we have something

called sitting Shiva you sit for seven

days and people friends and family come

and comfort you they can’t do that

anymore they can only do that through

social media so even the traditional

comforts that we had in the face of

death are being removed from us the end

result is that we will be left with a

trauma that will probably stay with us

to the end of our days people will never

forget world war two those who lived

through it people will certainly live

never forget the Holocaust those who

lived through it we

we’ll never forget this we will live

despite this we will just say as Moses

said you know choose life you know

nothing can make with that loss we are

going to lose people who are very

precious to us we’re going to lose

people who are very close to us and and

and we are not going to we’re not going

to try and diminish that pain that pain

is real and we have to feel it and then

we have to get up the next day I think

it’s also going to be strange to to kind

of re adapt should we be lucky enough to

be able to readapt at the end of this

like already you kind of you know you go

outside it’s so quiet like how are we

going to do it that’s when this is over

or are we even going to what are we

going to readjust to it’s you know it’s

difficult to know in this time but

christe’s you’re back with questions

well there’s a there’s a provocative

question yeah which I’m introduced to

how you respond to it from Facebook

rabbi it may not be coincidental that

the pandemic happened before Passover

Easter what do you think the meaning of

this plague is in the context of what

happened millennia ago in Egypt is the

whole humanity getting out of the

tyranny of materialism of symbolic Egypt

they go no sorry I I’m not going to have

the whole world eating unleavened bread

after this if you want a real answer if

you can handle this close bit of

biblical exegesis I would say this if

you read the exodus account there are

ten plagues the first two the water

turned

two blood and the country is full of

frogs the Egyptian magicians can

replicate though they say that’s nothing

that’s that’s just magic the third

plague is a plague of lice of

microscopic little organisms now on this

one the Egyptian magicians can’t

replicate it and they say to Pharaoh at

Spa Elohim hook it’s the finger of God

now this is the Bible making fun of

Egyptian civilization Egyptian

civilization said what’s divine is

massive look at the temples look at the

Great Pyramid of Giza for four thousand

years the highest man-made structure on

earth and along comes plank 3 this tiny

microscopic little organism and brings

Egypt to its knees

it’s what TS Eliot meant when he said I

will show you fear in a handful of dust

though if I were to take any biblical

significance it would not be in the

context of the book of Exodus but it

would be in the sense of teaching all of

this humility this tiny little

microscopic virus has brought humanity

to its knees despite all our wealth all

our scientific expertise and all our

technological prowess let us have a

little humility from Iran but what would

you say to someone whose takes almost

the opposite stance and say that

actually to try to understand this

remotely in terms of ancient myths and

stories and know that that whole

worldview has as kind of failed in the

current context the only story we should

be paying attention to is the story of

science the story of knowledge the story

of learning that random horrifying

things can happen on the planet can

spread out of control and that and that

yes we may maybe we can get a sense of

community and connection from religion

but in terms of an explanation of

happen to get it we must pay more

attention to science I do percent

totally and absolutely fair I wrote a

book on this called the great

partnerships they don’t think of

religion and science there’s two

opposite things the greatest rabbi of

the Middle Ages Moses Maimonides was one

of the greatest doctors of the Middle

Ages author of eight medical textbooks I

think it’s a religious imperative to

study medicine to develop new cures to

save life thereby and the idea that

religion is a substitute for science is

outrageous I’m sorry I have no patience

for that view whatsoever okay and

finally another question about your

Confederate devices society I mean it is

divisive it’s us versus them the how do

you dialogue with people on the other

side who are only used to talking with

people who agree with them it’s called

role reversal I think to myself you know

I mean somebody asked me what do you say

to a guy who’s just coming out of the

supermarket with I don’t know hundred

rolls of toilet paper you know and

leaving this old lady behind with

nothing in her basket I said what I

would say to him is just think what she

is thinking right now put yourself in

her position that’s the simplest way of

learning how to be moral I know now what

I saw in the United States just defy

belief you had what one month ago

a poll that said that 45% of Americans

no longer talked politics through a

close friend or a member of the family

because they are worried that that would

break up the relationship and I’m

thinking to myself oh we suddenly become

soldiers though such super heroes that

we can dispense with the need for

empathy - the need to understand how the

world looks like from somebody who’s

looking at it from another perspective

from us but for heaven’s sake it’s

ridiculous civilization depends and

morality depends on our being able to

see through other people’s eyes

and that and you know I’m gonna quote

the Bible at you Chris

do not arm a stranger because you know

what it feels like to be a stranger

you will want strangers in the land of

Egypt you know what it feels like to be

on the other side we need that in

politics right now Thank You rabbi and a

percent agree on that point for sure

I’ll be back home at the end okay the

rabbi you turn to religious texts

obviously for comfort and sucker what

advice do you have for those who don’t

have spiritual beliefs I don’t have

spiritual beliefs poetry and music those

are the finest expressions of the human

spirit you know just just read

Shakespeare’s sonnets read Wordsworth

read gates read whoever you know and

look musing is such a personal taste and

when I try and get all away from M&M

does lead raw dared and so on you know

but I never know what what speaks to

people but their words the language of

the mind and music is language of the

soul and don’t tell me that there are

too many human beings who can’t be moved

by music there are some a very few so

basically that’s it poetry and music I’m

just I’m not gonna lie rabbi I have

great delight in seeing you rocking out

• mmm that gives me great pleasure thank

you for that yeah lose yourself let’s

think that once a day you know though

you mentioned Shiva earlier and I know

also that you have or you have had up

until now a family Sabbath meal every

Friday what part of what role can ritual

play at this moment and how how are you

redefining ritual in a virtual world

well number one we get together with the

family on a

program that it was named I forget is it

guestroom or something something like

that some subsidiary of zoom I don’t

know they’re all on the screen together

and we have family times when we just

come together as a family so everyone’s

there and of course our grandchildren

love this stuff they grow up with this

stuff they add all sorts of special

effects while we’re talking and that’s

number one number two obviously

physically we can’t be with them on what

we can’t be with them . but especially

on friday night which is family time so

we have one of those electronic picture

frames you know where you can store lots

of pictures they change every few

seconds so as we are bringing in the

sabbath I’m and I stand by that picture

frame I would just stand there looking

at our grandchildren you know and it’s

very very moving I have to tell you

though you know

we managed where do you see hope or

light in this moment hello because I was

chief rabbi for a long time I got to

know Holocaust survivors I wanted to

know how did they carry on living you

know and some of them didn’t you know

some of them committed suicide even even

even Premal lovely committed suicide in

his 80 and I just thought after they

survived and then I thought of is Israel

Christo who died a couple of years of

about three years ago one month short of

his hundred and 14th birthday the

world’s oldest living man a Holocaust

survivor who had his Bar Mitzvah on his

hundred and 13th birthday lived in

lived in - he made chocolate he liked

making people have made the cured

chocolate EDA Seger you know wrote the

book the choice survivor of Auschwitz

survivor of the death march which was

worse than Auschwitz who writes her

first book at the age of 90 called the

choice and it’s an international

bestseller and she emerges as a female

Viktor Frankl who used her pain at

Auschwitz to speak to and heal the pain

of others I look at the photograph last

summer of a lady in Israel called

Shoshana Ovitz

another outreach survivor celebrating

her hundred and fourth birthday and she

invited her family our children

grandchildren great-grandchildren to

come together to celebrate with her they

took a photograph of them against the

western wall there were almost 400 I

thought what courage does it take to

bring 400 lives into a world that you

know contains out and I’ve just studied

these I haven’t read philosophical

theories I just studied these these

people lived from day to day their firm

life they celebrate life they look

forward they wrestle with their memories

and they try not to late load them on

others and they are joyous people but a

very hard one joy a lot of jagged edges

and I always think if they could get

through what they had to go through so

can I beautiful and I think that will

speak to to the many parents I’m sure

who were watching and listening and

worrying about the fact that children

are home or

children are not having an education

right now any other thoughts that you

have about how to how to involve and

include children in this moment without

filling them with the fear that I think

so many of us are feeling well I’ve seen

some very innovative approaches in

education classroom virtual classrooms

and the teachers seem to be working

through the idea that you have to keep

kids physically active quite a lot cuz

it’s quite difficult to sit still in

your own house in your own front room

and it gets quite boring so they seem to

have worked out more interactive and

more active lessons learning through

game playing in some cases and and that

seems to work I would also think you

know around Easter around Passover to

get children to you know do a little

Passover or the word you know a little

poem a little play a little something on

you know filmed on your smartphone and

send it to their grandparents

make them feel that they’re the teachers

are just the pupils and how much do you

advise honesty with children as it

sounds but how much do we involve

children in in what is happening here

there’s so much uncertainty around and

children don’t necessarily thrive on

uncertainty but at the same time you

don’t necessarily want to disguise the

fact that this is you know do put odd

for everybody how do you how do you

think about talking to children about

what’s happening it’s found out anyway

they’re extremely well informed these

days there are such times you have to be

very open and honest you have to answer

questions you have to never ever induce

fear or uncertainty you have to say it’s

gonna be okay

we’re all in this together okay we’re

going to come through this

you’ve got you’ve got to explain to them

why they have to keep certain distances

that they can’t go to certain places or

children respond to discipline when it

is accompanied with explanation but I’ve

never known that keeping things from

from children is terribly helpful and

and they’re getting so much more mature

so much earlier these days and so much

better informed that it’s better for

them to confront their fears for you to

confront their fears and to reassure

them and that reassurance must be

rock-solid not the slightest room for

doubt there what happens if you don’t

feel rock-solid have to for their sake

something about that and once you’ve

done it you will feel rock-solid it’s

the way you combat fear you know when

you have to be fearless the sake of your

children you become fearless it’s a very

strengthening and reinforcing phenomena

and you know at such moments families

huddle together in very beautiful ways

and you know I remember that but it

wasn’t the same in any way but when our

kids were young we were in Israel for

the whole of the first Gulf War

thirty-nine Scud missiles any one of

which could have contained

chemical or bacterial weapons we had

these very big gas masks it was very

scary for all of them but you know he

were very together as a family then just

as you know the it looks like the online

audience has been super appreciative and

somewhat you know they’ve learned so

much from you and there’s an interesting

question here this week get towards the

end of this hour together a broken

Beauty play in helping us manage our

lives at this time

in connecting with Beauty help us or is

that a luxury when people are suffering

and dying very I’m thinking I’m not a

great beauty guy you know sort of fairly

ugly sort of guy but I’m trying to

wrestle with him Swan Chris I’m thinking

you know of Rhino Maria Rilke z– line

in the first of the Duino elegies beauty

is the beginning of terror that we are

just able to bear so so Rilke seem to

say that that that beauty is this side

of fear

Maimonides says that beauty is a

wonderful antidote to anxiety and

depression

I just love bleeding for the sake of

loving beauty but some I also believe

and I don’t know whether this resonates

with anyone but I don’t know if you’ve

listened for instance the late quartets

of Beethoven and in particular the late

music of Schubert the last three

quartets and me and the quintet and to

me Schubert is taking pain and turning

it into beauty and therefore whenever

I’d felt pain or fear I tend to listen

to those late Schubert quartets or the

quintet and you takes you on this

journey from from pain to beauty and and

you feel transformed by the experience

so I’m not sure if musical beauty was

what your question I was asking about

but Beauty is much to be recommended at

such a time I mean is it is it fair to

say that beauty is connected quite

closely to two other words yearning

which is in the case of music I think

you outline there very eloquently that

that feeling of this is beautiful but

it’s it’s painful it’s like is

expressing a pain in me you know that

that is there’s a sort of almost a

contradiction there that is powerful but

then another word as well of gratitude

thanks for me

when you just take a moment I don’t know

to get outside if you can and be a piece

of nature or see something that moment

is saying oh my goodness that’s

beautiful oh my goodness

now that I think about it I do have

other things to be grateful for that

there’s some there’s some sort of mental

health nourishment in that can I tell

you a story do we have a moment do we

have time tell us tell us your story hmm

this our honeymoon 50 years ago and we

were a little Italian town called

paestum has some Roman ruins but it also

has a beach lovely beach and this

glorious day and I long to go into the

water except for the fact that I can’t

swim my and I was looking at the people

and there were about 200 yards out but

they were only up to their knees so I

said to Elaine I’m gonna paddle out up

to my knees and that’ll be that so I

paddled out up to my knees then I turned

around and started coming back and

suddenly I found myself out of my depth

there was no one near and as I went

under for the fifth time I remember

thinking to thoughts number one what a

way to start a honeymoon and number two

um what’s the Italian for help

damn how are others somebody must have

seen me because somebody rescued me to

this day I know who deposited me pretty

much unconscious at Elaine’s feet and

that was a honey but ever since then I

have said with special concentration the

first prayer that you say in the morning

before they do anything else

modere Anila for Nava thank you God for

giving me back my life that’s what I

feel every day the point I’m making

though is the first word we say I’m

waking up in the morning is more death

thank in Judaism we thanked before we

think and I commend this to everyone

right now think of the wonderful things

to say thank you for

and they will lift your spirit and I’ll

ask one last question from a line you

know you spoke of a just world could you

elaborate on that what what does that

just world look like and what steps

maybe just one key step do get there

well you know I my main thoughts are

about individual Nations I think we

really have reached the outer limits of

inequality I don’t know did you see that

that South Korean film that won the

Oscar what was it called parasite I

don’t know if you squawk the American

film that had most nominations called

the Joker

lately different films but both of them

cries of anger from the people who are

left out towards the people who are at

the top of society and they are violent

films both of them really violent films

and I can’t imagine either of them being

made in the past in quite that way there

could have been a lot of anger in the

30s and 40s but it would have been

working class solidarity type anger not

individual revenge type anger so I think

we need economic justice we cannot have

X million of people in the States and

then elsewhere outside adequate health

service we can’t have gross inequalities

touch that whether whether you’re Robert

Putnam on the sort of middling left or

Charles Mauri on the far right they are

saying the American dream no longer

plays anymore the social mobility has

declined those things

I mean Ray Dalio you remember Ray Dalio

was we were part of the same TED

Conference together

Ray Dalio last year called income

inequality in the States a national

emergency and an existential threat to

the future of America though it is that

individual justice

that I can make sense of the more global

justice is a really difficult one

because how do you reform failed and

failing States how do you deal with

corrupt rulers and and and essentially

corrupt economies so you know for these

I wish I had an answer I’d I really

don’t

I’ve discussed them with people who

should have an answer and they can you

know with people from the World Bank and

what have you and they find it very

difficult to give me an answer so I’ll

settle for local national justice and

for the rest needs a bigger brain than I

have means you hold any hope about the

fact that the reset we’re all facing

right now is so dramatic that it will

force this kind of thinking the kind of

radical rethinking that we need to do

about you know and we have the time to

do it and the the almost sort of the the

absolute essential need to do it to

rethink these things that the people

will do it in in a million conversations

around the world that we basically we

reassess what really matters and the

words you’ve just used are a powerful

motive for up for us to do that can can

this actually happen I think Chris you

you yourself have a very very important

platform to play as I don’t think this

is coming together will necessarily

happen through conventional political

avenues but it can come together through

platforms like Ted it can come together

through you know were World Health

Organization’s and scientific

cooperation and so on the kind that that

we are still waiting for on on climate

change I think we have reached the point

at which though our politics are all

national our problems are almost all

global and there is a big mismatch and

hence I think Ted has a very very

important role to play in this

well we usually appreciate you coming

and showing these words that was

something thank you thank you great to

be with you I always said remember Chris

you get the best speakers cuz you’re the

best listeners watching this thank you

for being great listeners and for I mean

with this son this journey of you know

wanders and stresses and learnings

through this strange era of the virus

will I loved what you said rabbi there

were all in this together that’s very

much our spirit right now it’s how we

feel towards our global community we’re

all in this together let’s continue to

talk together learn from each other do

this together we have another one of

these tomorrow at noon us Eastern Time

same time where it’s actually it’s it’s

a it’s a it’s a double act tomorrow it

we’re starting with it with 15 minutes

from a statistician a journalist

statistician data journalist on the

Financial Times who’s great of these

graphs that really give an extraordinary

understanding of how different countries

are doing and I’m excited for him to

share give those graphs with you into it

to explain them and and then talk about

the other half the other half will be a

conversation between Ted science curator

David Biello

and Sonya Shah who is also a science

journalist and a communicator whose

latest book was called pandemic

published in 2017 but it’s something

that she has been studying for many

years and so they are going to talk

about some of the ways that we might

come through this as well as some of the

ways that we have been responding so far

should be a great conversation and more

to come during the rest of the week so

Canada the slot come and join us again

share this with others if you found it

helpful you will be able to there a link

with this whole hour archived and

someone will tell me the web address

that where that’s at you can set you’ll

be able to find it just by coming to Ted

calm

following the lines to Ted connects well

we’ll have it posted or on our Facebook

page facebook.com slash Ted and and that

talks from last week are there as well

thank you so much for your company and

people again

Bracey