How a travelers mindset can grow your understanding

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hi

and welcome i’m your host phil klein and

i’m here today with rick steves

travel writer author of numerous travel

guides host of tv

and radio programs on travel and an

advocate of

independent travel while his books and

media deal

with travel mostly in europe his ideas

are relevant

for any of us who would venture from

home and into

unfamiliar territory rick welcome and

thank you so much for being here

well thanks bill nice to be with you so

great to be together

um all right so you have mentioned this

idea of a traveler’s mindset

can you tell us a little bit about what

that is

you know there’s two kinds of travelers

and it’s really determined by what you

bring to your travels

and that’s kind of a pre-existing

mindset

a traveler a good traveler to me a good

traveler’s mindset is positive

it’s excited to get out of your comfort

zone

to try new things if an opportunity

presents itself

you say yes um a good traveler’s mindset

is um ready to to to

change uh to seek out a transformative

experience when you travel

a lot of people travel just to affirm

the way they see the world i travel to

change my understanding of the world

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and can you say a little bit about how

that mindset is different from a tourist

or a home body mindset

well there’s three kinds of travelers um

there’s in my my estimate if i was to

kind of divide it up

there are tourists there are travelers

and there are pilgrims

and a tourist and there’s nothing right

or wrong about any of them i just think

it’s fun to mix it all together

a tourist is as a bucket list you know

they want to check off famous things

a tourist is likely to say

how many countries they’ve been to to me

that means nothing because

how many people did you talk to how many

precon preconceptions did you challenge

that you know

that’s not a function of how many

airports you’ve landed in

uh but a tourist is looking for fun in

the sun

a tourist is shopping a tourist is

recreation

it’s great it’s fun it’s a holiday a

traveler

i think is interested in

learning in broadening their perspective

in trying new things to gain new

appreciations

i’m endlessly interested in just

learning

on the road for me the road is a school

and a pilgrim is

beyond that i mean if for a traveler the

road is school

for a pilgrim the road is church and

you travel to seek you travel to not

learn about other places but you travel

to learn about yourself

that’s a pilgrim and as you travel

the mindset you bring with you

determines if you’re going to travel as

a tourist a traveler a pilgrim

or a little bit of everything

wow so how would you say your travel

mindset

came to be how did you get yours how did

it grow did you start out as a tourist

and become a traveler or

you know phil i can i can assist that by

looking back at a lifetime of travel

i’ve spent 100 days a year ever since i

graduated from high school

in europe my favorite countries by the

way are beyond europe india

southeast asia japan and so on but i’ve

just decided my mission in life is to

teach americans how to travel

and for me europe is the springboard for

world adventure

and if i look back on my teaching and

i’ve just been a workaholic about this i

travel 100 days a year and i i’m at home

teaching the rest of the time

i’ve evolved in what i consider kind of

a maslow’s hierarchy

of travel needs back in the 1980s it was

just cheap tricks

i didn’t have any money i was just

slumming around europe and learning from

my mistakes and come home and teach

people how to

sleep on the train how to find a good

meal how to

you know where to get a a a hotel

and and this kind of basic budget travel

tips

and then in the 90s i realized the most

rewarding thing for me to teach was also

the most rewarding thing for me to

travel

not just catching the train but

appreciating history

art culture cuisine and so on so i

started writing books about art and

history instead of guidebooks to where

do you get a cheat meal

and i started teaching you know history

and art for the travelers so

i was sliding up maslow’s hierarchy of

travel needs and then after 9 11 i found

myself realizing

the beauty of a traveler is you are

gaining

a better understanding of the other 96

of humanity

and i thought that ultimate

accomplishment for a travel traveler

is to travel

with this idea that we can learn more

about ourselves

and our home and our baggage by leaving

home and looking at it from a distance

and that to me is the just it enables us

to bring home the most beautiful

souvenir

and that’s a broader perspective and

that just carbonates my life when i get

home

i’m happier than ever to be an american

but i’m also a better citizen of this

planet

and for me that’s just the endlessly

gratifying

and rewarding thing about being

fortunate enough to travel and explore

the world not just as a tourist

but as a traveler and as a pilgrim

so how would you say that traveler’s

mindset or you know as you grow

and and go up that mass lowe’s hierarchy

of travel needs

you how does that change the way and

what you learn

from your travels

well you learn from your travels by

connecting

i think with people who are different

than you

one of the things i love about travel is

i meet more interesting people on the

road

than i ever meet at home i mean some

people travel by bringing the world to

them at home

you can do that it’s a curiosity

other people travel by venturing out and

finding themselves in a situation

where they’re surrounded by things that

are different

sitting around at a at a truck stop in

afghanistan

while they’re passing around some

marijuana and they’re skinning a goat

that’s a different experience and i

vividly remember that

sitting naked in a sauna in helsinki

with a bunch of working-class fins that

don’t have enough money to have asana

at their home or at their cabin that’s a

great experience

sitting in a salon in warsaw listening

to people appreciate chopin

being played on a beautiful piano in his

the the the country of his birth

that’s a beautiful experience i could

list off all sorts of situations where i

have been

in a different situation and i’ve gained

an appreciation

worshiping with coptic christians in a

city of 20 million

muslims in cairo that’s an interesting

situation to be in

um you know i just love that the thought

of that and you have that wherever you

go

now you can travel in a way where you’re

sitting on folding chairs with

six tour bus loads of people watching

slap dancing on stage

and then you can go back to your

american style hotel and complain about

the air conditioning

or you can immerse yourself

intellectually emotionally and

physically

in a foreign culture two different ways

to travel and two different ways to

learn

my my challenge as a travel teacher is

to inspire and equip americans to travel

in a way where they get out of their

comfort zone

and they risk changing themselves

i mean culture shock some people try to

avoid it

for me culture shock is the growing

pains of a broadening perspective

i seek culture shock i i revel in

just the exhausting emotional

wow i can’t believe what i’m

experiencing right now feeling

that you get when you put yourself in a

situation that

is out of your comfort zone and what

does that do to your sense of what’s

normal or what

norms there are does that change those i

love that

ethnocentrism is sort of thinking you

are normal

and we are not normal

americans are experts at thinking

they’re normal but ethnocentrism is not

just

an american thing big cultures tend to

be ethnocentric because if you’re in a

big culture you could think you’re the

norm

you remember the old concept of the ugly

american well ugly american just means

an ethnocentric person so that doesn’t

mean you’re bad you’re just a little

naive

culturally and you think you’re the norm

if you think

sitting on the toilet is normal you’re

wrong squatting over a hole is the norm

i was on a on an airplane in india with

a decal over the toilet in the airplane

and it was teaching people with a stick

figure how not to stand on the rim

of the toilet and squat over it and it

occurred to me oh

i was wrong i thought it was normal to

sit on something when you go

to the toilet i noticed in south asia

how comfortable people are

sitting on their hunches i can’t sit

i was at a in indonesia i was at a

village

where there was one television and it

was on a on a post and everybody would

gather to watch tv

on the village square and watch

television and there was no chairs there

people were just sitting on their

hunches

and occurred to me i can’t sit on my

haunch and relax and watch tv

but these people sit on their hunches

naturally because all their life they’ve

been sitting on their hunches

that’s exciting i’m changed when i

recognize that

i’m humbled it’s pretty nice to travel

with a mindset that you want to be

humbled

every time i’m humbled i celebrate

because i come home

with a with a broader perspective

so thinking about being back at home or

being at home

what would you say are the ways that a

traveler’s mindset can serve us

when we’re at home well there’s a lot of

issues we face at home

and i i think if the world wanted to be

more stable and more peaceful and to

trade better with each other and so on

they would

establish a fund and give every american

a a three-month trip to some place other

than

hawaii or cancun you know to really

travel

and when you graduate from school you

get this little fund

and you go traveling um europeans do

that with their erasmus program

they pay for people to work and study in

different countries in the european

union just so they can

be more empathetic with each other

empathy is an important thing

so when you’re a traveler in your home

you have more empathy for other people

you’re a little more humble about what

the rest of the world is like

you have um an appreciation of diversity

you celebrate diversity

you’re less fearful i mean i could go on

and on about the values of a traveler’s

experience life life view life story

when they come home and just

function as a citizen of their home

country but

think of the challenges in america right

now for diversity people are afraid of

diversity

if you travel i think you become less

afraid of diversity

i’m i’m always impressed by how i come

home thinking the world is filled with

beautiful people it’s filled with love

it’s filled with families it’s filled

with joy

joy does not make the headlines but

there’s a lot of joy

i india is my favorite country and i i

think it’s because

in india there’s a lot of suffering and

a lot of heartache and

a lot of squalor but there’s a lot of

joy

and i think of india as bulk

joy a billion people all

with a little joy celebrating it

together now of course there’s lots of

problems in india but there’s so much

joy there

and when i come home i celebrate the

world i have an appetite for it i want

to get out i want to be friends with the

world imagine being friends with the

world

having a mindset where you want to build

bridges to the world rather than walls

to

protect us from the world this world is

getting smaller and smaller and it’s

going to be more and more futile to

build walls and barricade

yourself behind you know in all of your

your privilege

we’re in this together it’s related to

fear also

travelers are less fearful there’s a lot

of fear in our country now when i

started teaching people said bon voyage

now nobody says to have a good trip

they say have a safe trip where did that

come from fear

and who are the most fearful people the

people who have not traveled

people with no passports people buried

deep in the middle of our country

people whose world view is shaped by

commercial television news rather than

actually getting out there and meeting

people

clear to me and i thought a lot about

this because you know my business

kind of depends on people not being

afraid so this fear

frustrates me in a lot of ways but most

importantly i just think it’s dangerous

for us to be so fearful

we’re four percent of this planet fear

is for people who don’t get out very

much the flip side of fear is

understanding

and we gain understanding when we travel

for me

travel i went to a conference a long

time ago when i was a kid up in

vancouver bc was called travel

a vital force for peace it was one of

the most inspirational weekends i’ve

ever had

and fear you conquer fear when you

travel and you come home and then you’re

dedicated to understanding the rest of

the world playing ball with the family

of nations

celebrating the diversity that’s boy

i got over taking home kitschy little

souvenirs a long time ago my souvenir

is this beautiful understanding that

that we’re part of an exciting planet

and if we could all just travel and get

to know our neighbors

there’s more than enough affluence to

make everybody happy and still have room

for people who are filthy rich

so a really wide and diverse world are

there ways we can use a traveler’s

mindset

in our daily lives as sort of an

everyday toolkit for

encountering uh whether it’s difference

or diversity

or the varied experiences around us and

enriching those a little bit you know

phil i’ve thought a lot about that

through kovid because

basically we’re all locked up for a year

and

my whole life has been ridiculously

one-minded i live and breathe

everything travel i was walking home the

other day and i saw a snail on my

neighbor’s

fence and white picket fence and snail

on the top of it and all i could think

of was escargot

you know i i just think in terms of

travel a culture

you know this family of nations and

cultures and so on and

when i was locked up throughout covid i

was

exercising this traveler’s mindset here

with no

option to get on an airplane and travel

and i realized

i’m not i don’t regret it but i realized

that there’s so many dimensions you

could focus on

some people live and breathe their

garden some people are so into their

dogs some people just

can’t get enough of cooking some people

are just

into all music you know it’s

all good it’s the weave of a life that

is embracing creativity and

collaboration

and and sharing and fun

and i took this covid lockdown

as a chance to not be a traveler but

employ my travelers mindset in things i

never took seriously

cooking i just spent a thousand dollars

for sharp knives a year ago if you told

me i’d spend a thousand dollars on

knives i’d say you are

out of your mind my children my kids

don’t

they all they say is who is this guy i’m

i’m excited about

the inventory of the fruit and

vegetables in my refrigerator

when i sit down with my partner we talk

about the decisions we made and how to

season the satay

i would have never ever ever done that

uh before

this period this opportunity to embrace

something new

i’m embarrassed about what i really

thought about people who walk dogs

until i had a chance to fall in love

with two dogs

and walk them i’m so thankful for that

i’m so tuned into nature right now every

sunset is a devotional

i just can’t get over how beautiful it

is it reminds me how fragile

and precious our environment is

and how we have to be stewards of our

environment uh

being at home i’ve i’ve made myself be

patient

you know there’s more to life than

increasing its speed

i’m a very good capitalist i’m a very

productive person

and suddenly i’m not able to make money

i’m not able to produce

and it’s god’s way of telling me to slow

down take a breath

i’m i’m open to that i’ve got i i’m

eager for that i’m hungry for that

it’s therapy for a workaholic um i’m a

privileged person

and now i’m aware that i’m in a

community where there’s a lot of

darkness a lot of fear a lot of

suffering

a lot of unemployment a lot of people

wondering how are they going to pay

their rent a lot of people with loved

ones who are sick

this is real this is more important than

anybody’s vacation to europe

and i’m tuning into it so i’m taking a

pause

i’m recognizing okay there’s more to

life than what i’m passionate about and

whatever anybody’s passionate about

that’s great

but there’s many more dimensions to life

and i’ve spent the last year

getting out of my comfort zone in ways

that are kind of traveling while you

stay at home and

i’m really thankful for it it’s been a

beautiful year for me

in that regard i’ve learned a lot

and let me ask what would you what would

you most like to leave us with

well i would most like to leave you with

that

this world is a place that

we need to embrace uh and i’ve said it

just in the last few minutes

but uh there’s there’s a lot of serious

challenges

i think the more we understand our world

the more we

see that we can work together the more

that we can put ourselves in a mindset

where we’re more likely to build bridges

and less likely to build walls

i think when we think about the future

considering our recent past with our

fears and with our frustrations and and

with our challenge with

this pandemic and so on i think the

challenges that are confront us in the

future

are going to be challenges that are

different than the challenges of the

past

they’re going to require embracing

science

they’re going to require good governance

they’re going to require

diligence on part of the citizenry

they’re going to require families

working together the family of nations

the challenges of the future are going

to be impervious to

conventional defense they’re going to be

blind to walls

and we can do it but we’ve got to be

thoughtful

and we’ve got to be able to step forward

and

and recognize the challenges and

i think if we if we take with us a

traveler’s mindset

with that get out of your comfort zone

uh try new things

be humble learn from others be positive

celebrate all the goodness and love on

this world it’s not pollyannish of

course there’s serious challenges and so

on

but um we’ve got a lot to be thankful

for we’ve got a lot of power

and we’ve got a lot of ability to make a

world a better place i

you know a lot of times in europe i find

myself just blurting out like a little

child giggles

life is good i just that’s what i i’m

i’m

on the top of a mountain in switzerland

or i’m having a great incredible gourmet

tapa

in basque country or i’m sucking on a on

a big

hubbly bubbly in turkey and i just think

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life is good and

this last year or so i’ve been thinking

life is good

for me and if we play it right

life can be good for everybody

that should be our goal and we can do

that

rick thank you so much for taking the

time well thank you phil for the excuse

to think about the value of travel

and share why it’s been such a joy in my

life and why i’m so

evangelical about the value of travel

especially the value of travel with the

right mindset