The lost art of democratic debate Michael Sandel

one thing the world needs one thing this

country desperately needs is a better

way of conducting our political debates

we need to rediscover the lost art of

democratic argument which would think if

you think about the arguments we have

most of the time it’s shouting matches

on cable television ideological food

fights on the floor of Congress I have a

suggestion look at all of the arguments

we have these days over health care over

bonuses and bailouts on Wall Street over

the gap between rich and poor over

affirmative action and same-sex marriage

lying just beneath the surface of those

arguments with passions raging on all

sides are big questions of moral

philosophy big questions of justice but

we too rarely articulate and defend and

argue about those big moral questions in

our politics so what I would like to do

today is have something of a discussion

first let me take a famous philosopher

who wrote about those questions of

justice and morality give you a very

short lecture on Aristotle of ancient

Athens Aristotle’s theory of justice and

then have a discussion here to see

whether Aristotle’s ideas actually

inform the way we think and argue about

questions today so you ready for the

lecture according to Aristotle justice

means giving people what they deserve

that’s that’s it that’s the lecture

now you may say well that’s obvious

enough the real questions begin when it

comes to arguing about who deserves what

and why take the example of flutes

suppose we’re distributing flutes who

should get the best ones let’s see what

people what would you say who should get

the best flute you can just call it out

at random you would do it by lottery or

by the first person to rush into the

hall to get them well the best flute

players the worst flute players how many

say the best flute players why why

should the best flute actually that was

Aristotle’s answer to but here’s a

harder question why do you think those

of you who voted this way that the best

flutes should go to the best flute

players who’s the greatest benefit to

all will hear better music if the best

flutes should go to the best flute

players that’s Peter

alright well it’s a good reason we’ll

all be better off if good music has

played rather than terrible music but

Peter Aristotle doesn’t agree with you

that that’s the reason that’s all right

Aristotle had a different reason for

saying the best flutes should go to the

best flute players he said that’s what

flutes are for to be played well he says

that to reason about just distribution

of a thing we have to reason about and

sometimes argue about the purpose of the

thing or of the social activity in this

case musical performance and the point

the essential nature of musical

performance is to produce excellent

music it will be a happy by-product that

we’ll all benefit but when we think

about justice Aristotle says what we

really need to think about is the

essential nature of the activity in

question and the qualities that are

worth honoring and admiring and

recognizing one of the reasons that the

best flute players should get the best

flutes is that musical performance is

not only to make the rest of us happy

but to honor and recognize the

excellence of the best musicians now

flutes may seem the distribution of

flutes may seem a trivial case let’s

take a contemporary example of a dispute

about justice had to do with golf Casey

Martin a few years ago Casey Martin did

any of you hear about him he is a very

good golfer but he had a disability he

had a bad leg a circulatory problem that

made it very painful for him to walk the

course in fact it carried risk of injury

he asked the PGA the Professional

Golfers Association for permission to

use a golf cart in the PGA tournaments

they said no no that would give you an

unfair advantage he sued and his case

went all the way to the Supreme Court

believe it or not the case over the golf

cart because the law says the distance

that the disabled must be accommodated

provided the accommodation does not

change the essential nature of the

activity he says I’m a great golfer I

want to compete but I need a golf cart

to get from one hole to the next suppose

you were on the Supreme Court suppose

you were deciding the justice of this

case how many here would say that Casey

Martin does have a right to use a golf

cart and how many say no he doesn’t

let’s take a poll show of hands how many

would rule in favor of Casey Martin and

how many would not

how many would say he doesn’t have all

right we have a good division of opinion

here someone who would not grant Casey

Martin the right to a golf cart what

would be your reason raise your hand and

we’ll try to get you a microphone what

would be your reason be an unfair

advantage if he gets to ride in a golf

cart all right those of you I imagine

most of you who would not give him the

golf cart worried about an unfair

advantage what about those of you who

say he should be given a golf cart how

would you answer the objection yes all

right

what’s your name

Charley says well get Charlie a

microphone in case someone wants to

reply tell us Charley why why would you

say he should be able to use a golf cart

but what about walking from hole to hole

it doesn’t matter it’s not part of the

game walking the course is not part of

the game of golf not in my opinion all

right stay there Charley

who has an answer who has an answer for

chart by the way all right who has an

answer for Charlie what would you say

the endurance element is a very

important part of the game walking all

those holes walking all those holes

that’s part of part of the game of golf

absolutely what’s your name Warren

Warren Charlie what do you say to war

I’ll stick to my original thesis well

we’re on our you golf er I’m not a

golfer and I am okay

you know it’s interesting in the case in

the lower court they brought in golfing

greats to testify on this very issue is

walking the course essential to the game

and they brought in Jack Nicklaus and

Arnold Palmer and what do you suppose

they all said yes they agreed with

Warren they said yes walking the course

is strenuous physical exercise the

fatigue factor is an important part of

golf and so it would change the

fundamental nature of the game to give

him the golf cart now notice something

interesting well by I should tell you

how the Supreme Court refers the Supreme

Court decided what are you suppose they

said they said yes that Casey Martin

must be provided a golf cart seven to

two they ruled what was interesting

about their ruling and about the

discussion we’ve just had is that the

discussion about the right the justice

of the matter depended on figuring out

what is the essential nature of golf and

the Supreme Court justices wrestled with

that question and justice Stevens

writing for the majority said he had

read all about the history of golf and

the essential point of the game is to

get a very small ball from one place

into a hole and as few strokes as

possible and that walking was not

essential but incidental now there were

two dissenters one of whom was Justice

Scalia he wouldn’t have granted the cart

and he had a very interesting dissent

it’s interesting because he rejected the

Aristotelian premise underlying the

majority’s opinion he said it’s not

possible to determine the essential

nature of a game like golf here’s how he

put it

to say that something is essential is

ordinarily to say that it is necessary

to the achievement of a certain object

but since it is the very nature of a

game to have no object except amusement

that is what distinguishes games from

productive activity it is quite

impossible to say that any of the games

arbitrary rules is essential so there

you have Justice Scalia taking on the

Aristotelian premise of the majority’s

opinion Justice Scalia’s opinion is

questionable for two reasons first no

real sports fan would talk that way if

we thought that the rules of the sports

we care about are merely arbitrary

rather than designed to call forth the

virtues and the excellences that we

think are worthy of admiring we wouldn’t

care about the outcome of the game it’s

also objectionable on a second ground on

the face of it it seemed to be this

debate about the golf cart an argument

about fairness on what’s an unfair

advantage

but if fairness were the only thing at

stake there would have been an easy and

obvious solution what would it be let

everyone write in a golf cart if they

want to then the fairness objection goes

away but letting everyone ride in a cart

would have been I suspect more anathema

to the golfing greats and to the PGA

even than making an exception for Casey

Martin why because what was at stake in

the dispute over the golf cart was not

only the essential nature of golf but

relatedly the question what abilities

are worthy of honor and recognition

as athletic talents let me put the point

that’s delicately as possible golfers

are a little sensitive about the

athletic status of their game

after all there’s no running or jumping

and the ball stands still

so if golfing is the kind of game that

can be played while riding around in the

golf cart it would be hard to confer on

the golfing greats the status that we

confer the honor and recognition that

goes to truly great athletes that

illustrates that with golf as with

flutes it’s hard to decide the question

of what justice requires without

grappling with the question what is the

essential nature of the activity in

question and what quality is what

excellence is connected with that

activity are worthy of honor and

recognition let’s take a final example

that’s prominent in contemporary

political debate same-sex marriage there

are those who favor state recognition

only of traditional marriage between one

man and one woman and there are those

who favor state recognition of same-sex

marriage how many here favor the first

policy the state should recognize

traditional marriage only

and how many favor the second same-sex

marriage now put it this way what ways

of thinking about justice and morality

underlie the arguments we have over

marriage the opponents of same-sex

marriage say that the purpose of

marriage fundamentally is procreation

and that’s what’s worthy of honoring and

recognizing and encouraging and the

defenders of same-sex marriage say no

procreation is not the only purpose of

marriage what about a lifelong mutual

loving commitment that’s really what

marriage is about

so with flutes with golf carts

and even with a few sleek intested

question like same-sex marriage

aristotle has a point very hard to argue

about justice without first arguing

about the purpose of social institutions

and about what qualities are worthy of

honor and recognition so let’s step back

from these cases and see how they shed

light on the way we might improve

elevate the terms of political discourse

in the United States and for that matter

around the world there is a tendency to

think that if we engage too directly

with moral questions in politics that’s

a recipe for disagreement and for that

matter a recipe for intolerance and

coercion so better to shy away from to

ignore the moral and the religious

convictions that people bring the civic

life it seems to me that our discussion

reflects the opposite that a better way

to mutual respect is to engage directly

with the moral convictions citizens

bring to public life rather than to

require that people leave their deepest

moral convictions outside politics

before they enter that it seems to me is

a way to begin to restore the art of

democratic argument thank you very much

okay

okay okay

so from flutes to golf courses to

same-sex marriage that was genius Lee

now look you’re a pioneer of open

education your lecture series is one of

the first to do a big what’s your vision

for the next phase of this well I think

that it is possible in the classroom we

have arguments and some of the most

fiercely held moral convictions that

students have about big public questions

and I think we can do that in public

life more generally and so my real dream

would be to take the the public

television series that we’ve created of

the course it’s available now online

free for everyone anywhere in the world

and to see whether we can partner with

institutions at universities in China in

India in Africa around the world to try

to promote civic education and also a

richer kind of democratic debate

so you picture at some point live in

real time you could have this kind of

conversation inviting questions but with

people from China and India joining in

right we did a little bit of it here

with 1,500 people in Long Beach and we

do it in the classroom at Harvard with

about a thousand students wouldn’t it be

interesting to take this way of thinking

and arguing engaging seriously with big

moral questions exploring cultural

differences and connect through a live

video hookup students in Beijing and in

Mumbai and in Cambridge Massachusetts

and create a global classroom that’s

what I would love to do so

I would imagine I would imagine that

there are a lot of people would love to

join you on that endeavor Michael Sandel

thank you so much thanks

世界需要的一件事这个国家迫切需要的一件事

是一种更好的

方式来进行我们的政治辩论

我们需要重新发现失落的

民主

辩论艺术

国会地板上的电视意识形态食品斗争我有一个

建议,看看

我们这些天关于医疗保健

、华尔街的奖金和救助、

贫富差距、

平权行动和同性婚姻的所有

争论。 在这些

充满激情的争论的表面之下,

是道德

哲学的大问题,正义的大问题,但

我们很少表达、捍卫和

争论我们政治中的那些重大道德问题,

所以我今天想做的

是有一些事情

首先让我以一位著名的哲学家为例

,他写了关于

正义和道德的那些问题,给你一个

非常 关于古代

雅典亚里士多德正义理论的简短讲座,

然后在这里进行讨论,

看看亚里士多德的想法是否真的影响

了我们今天思考和争论

问题的方式,所以你准备好

根据亚里士多德的讲座正义

意味着给予人们他们应

得的东西 就是这样,这就是讲座

现在你可能会说好,这很明显

真正的问题

开始于争论谁应该得到什么

以及为什么以长笛为例

假设我们正在分发长笛谁

应该得到最好的让我们看看什么

人什么 你会说谁应该

得到最好的长笛 你可以随便叫

出来 你会通过抽签

或第一个冲进

大厅的人来让他们好 最好的长笛

演奏者 最差的长笛演奏者 有多少人

说最好 长笛演奏者

为什么最好的长笛实际上是

亚里士多德的答案,但这是一个

更难的问题,为什么你认为

那些投票的人 最好的

长笛应该给最好的长笛

演奏者 对所有人最大的好处

如果最好的

长笛应该给最好的长笛演奏者,那么最好的长笛应该给最好的长笛

演奏者,这就是彼得,

好吧,这是一个很好的理由

,如果做得好,我们都会过得更好 音乐已经

演奏而不是糟糕的音乐,但

彼得亚里士多德不同意你的看法,

那就是没关系

亚里士多德有不同的理由

说最好的长笛应该交给

最好的长笛演奏者他说这就是

长笛的演奏 好吧,他说

,要推理

一件事物的公正分配,我们必须推理,

有时还要争论

事物或社会活动的目的,在这种

情况下是音乐表演,而音乐表演

的本质

是产生出色的

音乐 这将是一个快乐的副产品,

我们都会受益,但是当我们

考虑正义时,亚里士多德说我们

真正需要考虑的

是交流的本质

最优秀的长笛演奏者应该得到最好的

长笛的原因之一是音乐表演

不仅是为了让我们其他人开心,

而且是为了尊重和认可

优秀的长笛演奏者。 现在最好的音乐家

长笛似乎 长笛的分布

似乎是一个小事 让我们

举一个当代的例子 几年

前与高尔夫有关的正义之争 凯西

·马丁 凯西·马丁

你们有没有听说过他 他是一个非常

优秀的高尔夫球手,但他有残疾

他的腿有问题 循环系统有问题,

这让他在球场上行走时非常痛苦

事实上它有受伤的风险

他向 PGA 职业

高尔夫球手协会请求允许在

球场使用高尔夫球车 PGA 锦标赛,

他们说不,这会给你带来

不公平的优势,他起诉他的案子

一直到最高法院,

信不信由你,因为高尔夫球

车的案子 e 法律规定

必须为残疾人

提供住宿的距离,前提是住宿不会

改变活动的基本性质

他说我是一名出色的高尔夫球手 我

想参加比赛,但我需要一辆高尔夫球

车从一个洞到下一个洞 假设

你在最高法院 假设

你正在决定这个案子的法官,这里有

多少人会说凯西

·马丁确实有权使用高尔夫球

车,有多少人说不,他

不让我们进行民意调查 许多人

会做出有利于凯西·马丁的裁决,有

多少人不会有

多少人会说他没有

权利 我们在这里有很好的意见分歧

有人不会授予凯西

·马丁使用高尔夫球车的权利

你的理由是什么 举起你的手,

我们会试着给你一个麦克风 如果

他可以骑高尔夫球车,你的理由是什么 不公平的

优势

你们这些人我

想你们中的大多数不会给他

高尔夫球车的人担心 关于不公平的

优势 你们中那些

说应该给他一辆高尔夫球车的人呢

你会如何回答反对意见 是的

好吧

你叫什么

查理说得好 给查理一个

麦克风以防有人想

回复 告诉我们查理 为什么你为什么

说他应该 能够使用高尔夫球车,

但是从一个洞走到另一个洞怎么办?

没关系,这

不是比赛的一部分,

我认为这不是高尔夫球比赛的一部分

顺便说一句,谁有图表的答案 好吧 谁有

查理的答案 你会怎么

说 耐力元素

是比赛的一个非常重要的部分 走所有

这些洞 走所有这些洞

绝对是高尔夫比赛的一部分 你叫什么名字 Warren

Warren Charlie 你对战争怎么说

他们带来了高尔夫

在这个问题上作证的伟大人物是

走对比赛至关重要的路线

,他们带来了杰克尼克劳斯和

阿诺德帕尔默,你认为

他们都说是的,他们同意

沃伦,他们说是的,走这条路线

是剧烈的体育锻炼,

疲劳 因素是高尔夫的重要组成部分

,因此它会改变

比赛的基本性质,给

他高尔夫球车现在注意一些

有趣的事情,我应该告诉你

最高法院如何提交

最高法院决定你认为

他们说什么 说是的,

必须向凯西马丁提供一辆高尔夫球车,七比

二他们裁定他们的裁决有趣的

是,我们刚刚进行的

讨论是关于权利的讨论

,事情的正义取决于弄清楚

什么是 高尔夫的基本性质

和最高法院大法官与

这个问题作斗争,史蒂文斯大法官

为大多数人撰写的文章说他已经

阅读了有关历史的所有内容 打高尔夫球,

比赛的要点是

从一个地方把一个很小的球

打进洞里,尽可能少的击球

,走路不是

必需的,而是偶然的,现在有

两个反对者,其中一个是

斯卡利亚大法官,他不会 ‘没有批准购物车

,他有一个非常有趣的异议,

这很有趣,因为他拒绝了

大多数人观点背后

的亚里士多德前提

本质

通常是说它

对于实现某个目标是必要的,

但由于游戏的本质是

除了娱乐之外没有其他目标

,这就是游戏与

生产活动的区别,因此完全

不可能说任何 游戏的

任意规则是必不可少的,

因此斯卡利亚大法官接受

了多数意见的亚里士多德前提

斯卡利亚大法官的意见是有

问题的 之所以能够这样做,首先有两个原因

,如果

我们认为

我们关心的运动规则仅仅是武断的,

而不是旨在唤起我们认为值得钦佩的

美德和卓越,那么真正的体育迷不会这样说

我们不会

关心比赛的结果 从表面上看,这

也是令人反感的第二个

理由这似乎是

关于高尔夫球车的辩论,

关于公平的争论,关于什么是不公平的

优势,

但如果公平是唯一

受到威胁的事情,那就会有 是一个简单而

明显的解决方案,如果他们愿意,让

每个人都在高尔夫球车上写

什么,那么公平的反对意见就

消失了,但让每个人都骑在车上

,我怀疑

高尔夫球界的伟人甚至 PGA 都会

更加厌恶 而不是为凯西

·马丁破例,因为在高尔夫球车之争中的利害关系

不仅在于高尔夫的本质,还

在于相关的问题是什么能力

是 作为运动天赋的荣誉和认可

让我

尽可能巧妙地指出,高尔夫球手

对他们比赛的运动状态有点敏感

,毕竟没有跑步或跳跃

,球静止不动,

所以如果打高尔夫球是一种运动

可以一边骑着

高尔夫球车一边玩 很难

授予伟大的高尔夫球手我们

授予真正伟大运动员的荣誉和认可 这

说明高尔夫和

长笛一样很难决定问题

什么是正义需要什么而不

去解决这个问题 所

讨论的活动的本质

是什么以及什么是质量

与该

活动相关的卓越是值得尊重和

认可的 让我们举一个

在当代政治辩论中很突出的最后一个例子

同性 婚姻

有些人赞成国家

只承认一男一女之间的传统婚姻

那些赞成国家承认同性

婚姻的人在这里有多少人赞成第一个

政策国家应该

只承认传统婚姻

有多少人赞成第二次同性

婚姻现在这样说是

正义和道德的思考方式的

基础 我们对婚姻的争论

同性婚姻的反对者

婚姻的根本目的是生育

,这才是值得尊重、

承认和鼓励的事情

,同性婚姻的捍卫者说没有

生育不是婚姻的唯一目的

终生

相爱的承诺怎么样,这就是

婚姻的

真正意义,长笛和高尔夫球车

,甚至

像同性婚姻这样的一些

时髦的问题亚里士多德在

不首先

争论社会的目的的情况下很难争论正义 机构

以及哪些品质值得

尊重和认可,所以让我们

从这些案例中退后一步 d看看他们如何

阐明我们可以改进的方式

提升美国的政治

话语条件,就此而言

,世界各地都有一种趋势

认为,如果我们过于直接地

参与政治中的道德问题,那

就是 分歧,就此而言,这

是导致不容忍和胁迫的良方,

因此最好避免

忽视人们带来公民生活的道德和宗教信仰

直接参与

公民

为公共生活带来的道德信念,而不是

要求人们在进入政治之前将他们最深刻的

道德信念留在政治之外

,在我看来,这似乎是

开始恢复民主辩论艺术的一种方式,

非常感谢,

好的,

好的

好吧,从长笛到高尔夫球场再到

同性婚姻,这都是天才李

现在看起来你是开放教育的先驱

你的演讲 ries

是第一个大做的人之一 你

对这口井下一阶段的愿景是

什么 认为我们可以

更普遍地在公共生活中做到这一点,所以我真正的

梦想是拍摄

我们制作的公共电视连续剧,

现在

世界各地的每个人都可以免费在线

观看,看看我们是否可以合作 与

中国、

印度、非洲世界各地的大学机构合作,

努力促进公民教育和

更丰富的民主辩论,

这样你就可以在某个时刻

实时想象你可以进行这种

邀请问题的对话,但与

来自 中国和印度也加入了

,我们在长滩有 1500 人

做了一点点,我们在哈佛的教室里有

大约 1000 名学生,不是吗?

认真对待重大

道德问题,探索文化

差异,通过现场

视频连接北京、

孟买和马萨诸塞州剑桥的学生,

并创建一个我愿意做的全球课堂,

这很有趣。

我会想象我会想象

有很多人愿意

加入你的努力迈克尔桑德尔

非常感谢你