How to foster true diversity and inclusion at work and in your community Rosalind G. Brewer
Whitney Pennington Rodgers:
Hi, Roz Brewer.
Thanks so much for being with us today.
Rosalind Brewer: Thank you for having me.
WPR: We can just dive right in.
We’re right now
in the last quarter of 2020,
and I think that a lot of people
would agree that we’re in the midst
of what’s probably one of the largest
reckonings around racial equity
that we’ve had in this country in decades.
And it’s something that you’ve been
such a vocal advocate for,
both through your role at Starbucks
and throughout your career of diversity
and inclusion in the workplace.
And so I’m curious just to hear from you
to start off the conversation,
what this moment means for DEI efforts,
not just in corporate America
but in business in general.
RB: You are right
that this has made many of us that are
in the corporate setting and beyond
to rethink the position on diversity
and inclusion in the workplace.
You know, let me start the conversation
about where are we actually
in diversity and inclusion
in the corporate setting,
and I will tell you that this is actually
putting a spotlight on the weaknesses
and maybe the lack of forethought
and intensity that we should always
have maintained on this subject all along.
One of the things that I think
it’s been highlighting for most of us
is that our biggest
opportunity is inclusion.
Because, you know,
I have heard the stories so many times
about how there’s
no Black talent out there,
no Latinx talent
for these particular roles.
The talent is out there.
I will tell you that it’s underdeveloped,
because I think we have spent more time
trying to reach numbers
than we have changing our environment
where people feel safe,
where they feel they can come to work
and be their whole self,
give it everything they’ve got,
be their natural self
and be respected for it
and applauded for it,
and for people to recognize
and appreciate their differences
and understand that they’re differences,
and if they’re included
in the conversations,
that they’re just a better resource
for the companies.
So I think there’s so much opportunity
in the inclusion space,
because we focus too much
on meeting metrics.
WPR: And, you know,
I think earlier this year
when the protests began
right after the death of George Floyd,
we saw lots of organizations
put out these statements of solidarity,
these commitments
to do more to be inclusive
both in their workspace
and for their customers
and people who support their work.
But then you also hear –
I’ve heard a lot of business leaders
say things like, “You know,
we want to do something
but don’t really know where to start.”
And so I’m curious to hear from you
just sort of what do you think
are ways that you actually
can make a real difference
when it comes to thinking
about diversity and inclusion
and avoid sort of this
performative justice?
RB: Yes.
So there’s a few things
that I think about in this space.
First of all, when you think
about an inclusive environment,
you think about: Am I being heard?
And most people with differences,
they want to know that you are heard
and that you are seen.
And I really applaud the companies
who have been spending time
just putting themselves
on a learning journey,
you know, holding listening sessions,
trying to make sure that
we’ve got different viewpoints
when big decisions are made.
You know, there are some companies
who are engaging their partner networks
in ways that they’ve never done before.
I think those are some
early success factors
that could lead us
to different kinds of conversations.
And I’ve been listening to
a lot of my peers in different industries,
and they’re having
their own personal aha moments,
and they’re actually checking themselves
at the front door, saying,
“I never thought,” “I never knew,”
“I didn’t know what I was doing
when I said X, or when I did this.” Right?
And so I think it starts
with some very simple things.
I’d say that there are
a lot of steps to take
before training and development,
that’s for sure.
So those that are jumping quickly
into training and development,
I’d say put a pause on it
and just get back to grassroots
and hold listening sessions
and then decide,
what do you want to do?
And then help those people
of diverse backgrounds
engage in those conversations about
how they want to see change happen.
They’re the best resource
for a lot of this
and a lot of these discussions.
I mean, I learned so much.
I have breakfast sessions
with the baristas and partners
at Starbucks regularly.
I just had one yesterday,
and when my screen popped up,
I had nine diverse
randomly selected partners.
We call our employees “partners.”
And it was such a rich conversation,
and they began to network
while I’m talking to them, right,
they were learning from each other.
And this wasn’t a diversity conversation.
We were actually kicking off
our new financial year at Starbucks,
and so this was actually
a business conversation
and a touch-base to see how you’re doing
while we’re working remotely.
And, you know, it starts there
with building relationships
and learning people for who they are
and engaging them and saying,
“I see you, I hear you.”
That goes such a long way
that I think if we do more of that,
I even think the engagement
and performance
just goes through the roof.
WPR: And so what I hear you saying, then,
is that it’s less about
this short-term “how can I respond
to this moment right now?”
and it’s more about
long-term engagement with people
and making this part of the fabric
of how you do your work.
And so I’m curious also to hear
a little bit about,
just, I guess if there is a timeline,
when people think about how quickly
they should be responding to protests
and to what’s happening
in this cultural moment.
What should we actually be looking at
as far as when we see this change
actually materialize and take effect?
RB: Yes. So I think there are
some short-term things.
There are some really key partnerships
in the communities around our localities
that are really important to also engage
in some of the listening
and learning sessions as well.
I learn tons from organizations
like the Legal Defense Fund,
from the NAACP,
and engaging those partnerships
that we’ve had over the years,
but changing the discussion
of the conversation
about how do we partner together.
Because one of the things
that I fear for being a retailer
like Starbucks and many other companies
is that I want my partners to feel
not only safe, comfortable,
heard and seen in the company,
I want them to have that same
experience in the community.
And so that’s when it comes full circle.
I really want diverse BIPOC employees
to feel like, you know,
“I make a difference.”
First of all, I vote every year.
I’m engaged in my community.
And then I’m engaged in work.
So I have value.
And so I think there are
some key partnerships
that should happen right now
so that we can make sure
that our employees feel like
they have a full way to engage
in this change that’s underfoot right now.
WPR: And then I wonder, conversely,
what sort of pitfalls have you seen
business leaders fall into
that are actually just not effective
and are not supportive of efforts
to be more inclusive and to diversify?
What are some of the things
that haven’t worked?
RB: Yeah, you know, I worry about
the race for numbers, to meet numbers,
because what you will find,
I’ve found many times in my career,
is that some of our best leaders
have good intentions,
but they don’t understand.
They don’t understand
the partner sitting next to them
that looks different from them.
And so I worry about
when we race to numbers,
because, you know what?
The kind of country we live in,
the world we live in,
we all know how to make numbers work.
What we don’t know how to do
is to build strong relationships
that are lasting, that are valued.
And I think that’s where we need to start,
is relationship-building
and key partnerships.
So I worry about the numbers base.
WPR: And so, of course, I think
we all remember a few years back,
Starbucks had a very public issue.
You were embroiled
in that incident in Philadelphia
around racial discrimination
that led to Starbucks taking a step back
and thinking about inclusion
and implicit bias and racial sensitivity.
So how did that experience
help prepare you for this year,
both as an individual business leader
and then also as an organization?
How did it help you approach
what we’ve been experiencing
in this country in the past few months?
RB: So, that was
a real example of leadership
and, actually, where Starbucks had failed
in selecting the right leadership
for that store.
And to give you an example,
the person that was running that store
was a very young, up-and-coming
leader for the company,
and to put her in a store
in 18th and Spruce in Philadelphia
was an opportunity for all of us.
So in retrospect, one of the reasons
why we did the antibias training
was to make sure that
we began those conversations.
And when I talk
about not just training –
that training was very unique
because it was self-engaged.
They weren’t being
taught by an instructor.
They had to have conversations
with their peer baristas
around diversity and inclusion
amongst themselves.
So it wasn’t moderated
by any leader in the company.
It was self-instructive.
And the conversations that were created
once we had that kind
of relationship-building –
you know, we had
some of our baristas asking us,
“Can I take this home
and talk to my father,
who never let me take
the Black girl to the prom?”
You know, we started what we felt
like a movement and a discussion
that we have been able
to really use from that point on
in terms of the way we want
to escalate the conversations
and make change happen at Starbucks,
and not only at Starbucks
but in our communities,
because there were quite a few
organizations that we reached out to
that we’re still engaged with today
that are helping us build
community leadership as well.
WPR: And is that the goal?
I mean, you mentioning an employee
who wanted to take their learnings home.
Is the goal in thinking about how you
approach these issues as an organization
for your employees and your partners
to see how they can move this
beyond just their work life?
RB: Sure. You know,
a lot of this starts at home.
It starts with what happens
at your dinner table. Right?
And so we can correct what happens
and we’re responsible for what happens
when you come to work at Starbucks,
but we also realize that
we can only get them ever so far,
but if you’re at the table
having some conversations
that are counter to what
you’re learning in the workplace,
you can’t help but slow down
your growth and your change.
And so a lot of the work that we do
around diversity and inclusion
is open-sourced.
So when we created
the materials for the work
when we had the closing
of our stores on May 28th,
we had given that to so many
other companies for them to use,
and even we’re doing some work right now
around Courageous Conversations.
And in this remote world,
we’re allowing our partners
to bring their families onto the camera
or listen in the room
as we have courageous
conversations on diversity.
So if Starbucks has a keynote speaker
on a certain diversity topic,
we invite the family in.
And it’s been really, it’s been great.
A lot of our senior executives have said,
“This is starting new conversations
with my teens at home,”
who are either getting bullied …
These are changing the conversations
about why we question
some of the actions
that we had around our house.
And so we need to understand
that to embrace this issue,
it is not as small as numbers,
it’s not as small as just the workplace.
It is very comprehensive.
So we’re trying to do
something different here
to change the conversations
and then actually grow inclusion
in a very, very grassroots way
at Starbucks.
WPR: And, of course, I would imagine
as a Black woman and a business leader
that these issues hit
really close to home for you.
And I’m curious just
with your interactions
with colleagues and counterparts
at other organizations
that perhaps there isn’t
that same level of investment
because it isn’t something
that’s as important personally.
And I’m curious how you are able
to begin those conversations
with colleagues and counterparts
who are in positions to bring
about this sort of change
in their own organizations
or within Starbucks.
How do you get them invested,
and how do you, frankly,
get them to care about this?
RB: Yeah, that’s a very good question.
So, I have two children.
I have a daughter who is 17
and a son who is 25.
And quite honestly,
when that situation happened
in our Starbucks stores back in 2018,
my son was the same
exact age as Donte and Rashon
and looks a lot like them, by the way,
and would have been sitting
in the Starbucks
dressed the same way they were.
So that incident alone
was deeply personal to me,
actually made me grab my chest, right?
Because I knew at any given moment
my husband or my son
could get pulled over,
and I’d get that call
in the middle of the night.
So it’s deeply personal for me,
and what I try to do is I share stories,
and I talk very openly about my family
and what we do on the weekends
and our holiday traditions
and all of those things.
And I have no issue
with someone leaning over to me,
maybe one of my white counterparts,
saying, “I don’t understand that.
What are they talking about?”
when they hear something that’s
a little bit different than their culture.
And I’m wide open to explain
and have those conversations,
because I feel like I really want
to be a conduit for that.
I always tell everyone,
no question’s too small or too big.
Even with everything
that’s going on right now
in our environment around social unrest,
I’ve gotten tons of calls
from my white peers at different companies
saying, “Roz, what do you think?
What are you hearing?
Help me out here.”
I’ll drop everything,
because if I can help,
and I’ll tell the story,
and I think most people know
if they’ve known me over the years.
I’m pretty frank and outspoken.
And I’ll also tell them
when they’ve really messed up
and what they need to do about it.
And so I think I want more Black leaders
to feel just as confident in doing that.
I see no risk in it.
I do realize that it begins
a new relationship with some people,
and some people can’t take
the tough conversations,
but it’s time for tough conversations.
WPR: And, I mean, to that point,
I imagine there are probably
also people who,
because these conversations
are tough and uncomfortable,
think maybe it’s easier or better
to just avoid having to do that
and to have those
conversations and discussions
to stir the pot in some ways.
And so what do you say to the people
who think “Let’s just try to lay low,”
and I’ve heard some of this, too,
in this moment, “Let the moment pass
so that we can get back
to business as usual”?
RB: Yeah. Well, I’d first start off
by saying how disgusted I am
by that statement,
because leaders lead in the moment,
and you never know when
you’re going to be called upon.
And if this isn’t a calling,
I don’t know what is.
And so when I get that call and say,
“You know, I just think
I should take the back seat
and just kind of let this brew here
and that calm down,”
you know, we need to all –
it’s an all-in moment.
And leadership is not
designated by your title.
It’s designated about how great
you can create followership.
And having thought leadership,
people underestimate the opportunity
to pick up the phone and call someone,
and say, “How are you?
How is this affecting you?
How can I help?”
That’s pretty simple.
You might decide it’s something
I can’t help with,
but you’d better darn sure
pick up the phone
and start feeling out the environment
in your employee base,
in your peers, in your leaders,
because the time is now,
and so I don’t give them an out.
I actually try and push them
over the edge,
because sometimes they are
just kind of stuck, like, “What do I do?”
And then the other thing
that I personally have to do
is to make sure that they understand
that because I am
at this level where I am,
I’m not excluded from these issues, right?
I know that when my husband
jumps in his vehicle,
I worry every time
if he’s out in the evening
that he may not come back home
the same way he left.
I feel that way for my son
and for my husband.
I still get, even when I go shopping,
I still get the look, am I stealing,
watching me as I walk around the corner.
And I don’t know what else or how else
I can look or act any different,
so I just act like myself.
I used to get dressed to go shopping.
Now I never do that.
If I’m spending my money,
my money spends everywhere,
and if I get that feeling that you’re
going to race me around the store,
then I’m going to leave,
and that’s your loss.
But I still get that, and so I worry.
So I also try to help people understand
that this is not a socioeconomic,
once you’ve sort of “made it,”
you’re out of the water.
No.
We’re still, as someone with differences,
visible differences, you’re still at risk.
WPR: And so much of this
conversation also is about
who’s in leadership
and who’s making these decisions
and representation at high levels.
And I know that you’ve been really vocal
about your own experiences
as a woman color, person of color,
as a Black woman,
in these executive positions,
and often feeling you are
the only one in some rooms,
and sort of the isolation of that,
but also the challenges in making choices
and getting things done
when that’s the case.
And so I’m curious also,
what are the opportunities
that this moment presents
for us to perhaps
approach this differently,
and how can people
at different organizations
who are looking to bring people in
to positions of leadership,
how can we approach this differently
so that we can begin to see
more people of color in these roles?
RB: Sure.
It’s been my experience
that I see tons of great, diverse talent
coming in to companies,
and then they’re stuck.
And what I see is the pipeline
is very weak at a certain level,
and once it gets to the point
of trying to decide on a succession plan
for who’s next in line for the big jobs,
there’s this great talent
that’s like that mid-level manager area,
then there’s a big gap,
and then there’s maybe two at the top.
And it puts a lot of pressure
on those two on the top
to try and go down and grab
those that are just,
maybe been with the company
for two to five years,
and lift them up.
So what I think about is:
How do we give extraordinary experiences
to our youngest diverse talent
so that they can get
that exposure early on
and begin to develop early on
just like their white peers?
And I think sometimes
we celebrate too much
that they are part of the company,
but what we need to celebrate is,
where is their progression?
Where is their opportunity for growth?
Who’s listening to them,
and who has their hands on them?
And one of the things
that we’re doing at Starbucks
is really having structured mentorship.
But the mentorship looks a lot more
like being a sponsor.
And so, our executive leaders
will be responsible for the development
of our young, diverse talent
and making sure that they’re getting
that exposure and those opportunities.
And just imagine if you’re
a new hire in the company,
and someone wants to meet with you
at a senior level once a month,
twice a year, even –
that’s game-changing.
And so we have to reach
our young talent early,
and now this pipeline has got to close.
We’ve got to fill it up
and close this gap,
because if not, I don’t see a pathway
for diverse executives,
C-suite executives,
in the next, I would say,
three to five years,
I don’t see a lot of placements happening.
WPR: And are you hopeful in this moment?
Do you feel like we are
making progress towards this?
RB: It’s early days.
I’m hopeful.
I feel good about the conversations
that are happening.
I’m seeing change in people
thinking more about themselves
when my white counterparts
are questioning some of their actions.
And so I feel like we can’t
let this moment leave us,
and what we’re learning about it.
I think what I’m really optimistic about
is that now I think
more people will understand
that the less diverse
and less inclusive we are,
it’s more than a business imperative.
When we combine the pandemic
and we see the inequities of a pandemic
on a diverse community,
and we talk about how that happens,
how people are underrepresented
in health care,
underrepresented in their housing,
they can see that this
is a groundswell moment.
And the more we realize that
and talk about that complexity,
then the solutions begin to happen.
And I think that’s happening
more and more,
so I’m optimistic about that,
because we’re looking at the ills
of lack of diversity and inclusion,
and maybe looking
at much broader solutions for it
than what we have in the past.
WPR: Thank you so much, Roz.
This was such a meaningful conversation.
It was great to hear your insights.
RB: Thank you.