In praise of conflict Jonathan Marks

Twenty years ago,

when I was a barrister
and human rights lawyer

in full-time legal practice in London,

and the highest court in the land

still convened, some would say
by an accident of history,

in this building here,

I met a young man
who had just quit his job

in the British Foreign Office.

When I asked him, “Why did you leave,”

he told me this story.

He had gone to his boss
one morning and said,

“Let’s do something
about human rights abuses in China.”

And his boss had replied,

“We can’t do anything
about human rights abuses in China

because we have
trade relations with China.”

So my friend went away
with his tail between his legs,

and six months later,
he returned again to his boss,

and he said this time,

“Let’s do something
about human rights in Burma,”

as it was then called.

His boss once again paused

and said, “Oh, but we can’t
do anything about human rights in Burma

because we don’t have
any trade relations with Burma.”

(Laughter)

This was the moment
he knew he had to leave.

It wasn’t just the hypocrisy
that got to him.

It was the unwillingness of his government

to engage in conflict
with other governments,

in tense discussions,

all the while, innocent people
were being harmed.

We are constantly told

that conflict is bad

that compromise is good;

that conflict is bad

but consensus is good;

that conflict is bad

and collaboration is good.

But in my view,

that’s far too simple
a vision of the world.

We cannot know

whether conflict is bad

unless we know who is fighting,

why they are fighting

and how they are fighting.

And compromises can be thoroughly rotten

if they harm people
who are not at the table,

people who are vulnerable, disempowered,

people whom we have
an obligation to protect.

Now, you might be
somewhat skeptical of a lawyer

arguing about the benefits of conflict

and creating problems for compromise,

but I did also qualify as a mediator,

and these days, I spend my time
giving talks about ethics for free.

So as my bank manager likes to remind me,
I’m downwardly mobile.

But if you accept my argument,

it should change not just the way
we lead our personal lives,

which I wish to put
to one side for the moment,

but it will change the way
we think about major problems

of public health and the environment.

Let me explain.

Every middle schooler
in the United States,

my 12-year-old daughter included,

learns that there are
three branches of government,

the legislative, the executive
and the judicial branch.

James Madison wrote,

“If there is any principle
more sacred in our Constitution,

and indeed in any free constitution,

than any other,

it is that which separates

the legislative, the executive
and the judicial powers.”

Now, the framers were not just concerned

about the concentration
and exercise of power.

They also understood
the perils of influence.

Judges cannot determine
the constitutionality of laws

if they participate in making those laws,

nor can they hold the other branches
of government accountable

if they collaborate with them

or enter into close
relationships with them.

The Constitution is,
as one famous scholar put it,

“an invitation to struggle.”

And we the people are served

when those branches do, indeed,
struggle with each other.

Now, we recognize
the importance of struggle

not just in the public sector

between our branches of government.

We also know it too in the private sector,

in relationships among corporations.

Let’s imagine that two American airlines
get together and agree

that they will not drop the price

of their economy class airfares
below 250 dollars a ticket.

That is collaboration,
some would say collusion,

not competition,

and we the people are harmed

because we pay more for our tickets.

Imagine similarly
two airlines were to say,

“Look, Airline A, we’ll take
the route from LA to Chicago,”

and Airline B says, “We’ll take
the route from Chicago to DC,

and we won’t compete.”

Once again, that’s collaboration
or collusion instead of competition,

and we the people are harmed.

So we understand
the importance of struggle

when it comes to relationships
between branches of government,

the public sector.

We also understand
the importance of conflict

when it comes to relationships
among corporations,

the private sector.

But where we have forgotten it

is in the relationships
between the public and the private.

And governments all over the world
are collaborating with industry

to solve problems of public health
and the environment,

often collaborating
with the very corporations

that are creating or exacerbating
the problems they are trying to solve.

We are told that these relationships

are a win-win.

But what if someone is losing out?

Let me give you some examples.

A United Nations agency
decided to address a serious problem:

poor sanitation in schools in rural India.

They did so not just in collaboration
with national and local governments

but also with a television company

and with a major
multinational soda company.

In exchange for less
than one million dollars,

that corporation received the benefits
of a months-long promotional campaign

including a 12-hour telethon

all using the company’s logo
and color scheme.

This was an arrangement

which was totally understandable

from the corporation’s point of view.

It enhances the reputation of the company

and it creates brand loyalty
for its products.

But in my view,

this is profoundly problematic
for the intergovernmental agency,

an agency that has a mission
to promote sustainable living.

By increasing consumption
of sugar-sweetened beverages

made from scarce local water supplies
and drunk out of plastic bottles

in a country that is already
grappling with obesity,

this is neither sustainable
from a public health

nor an environmental point of view.

And in order to solve
one public health problem,

the agency is sowing the seeds

of another.

This is just one example
of dozens I discovered

in researching a book on the relationships
between government and industry.

I could also have told you
about the initiatives in parks

in London and throughout Britain,

involving the same company,
promoting exercise,

or indeed of the British government
creating voluntary pledges

in partnership with industry

instead of regulating industry.

These collaborations or partnerships
have become the paradigm in public health,

and once again, they make sense
from the point of view of industry.

It allows them to frame
public health problems and their solutions

in ways that are least threatening to,

most consonant with
their commercial interests.

So obesity becomes a problem

of individual decision-making,

of personal behavior,

personal responsibility
and lack of physical activity.

It is not a problem,

when framed this way,

of a multinational food system
involving major corporations.

And again, I don’t blame industry.

Industry naturally engages
in strategies of influence

to promote its commercial interests.

But governments have a responsibility

to develop counterstrategies

to protect us

and the common good.

The mistake that governments are making

when they collaborate in this way

with industry

is that they conflate

the common good

with common ground.

When you collaborate with industry,

you necessarily put off the table

things that might promote the common good
to which industry will not agree.

Industry will not agree
to increased regulation

unless it believes this will
stave off even more regulation

or perhaps knock some competitors
out of the market.

Nor can companies agree
to do certain things,

for example raise the prices
of their unhealthy products,

because that would violate
competition law,

as we’ve established.

So our governments should not confound

the common good and common ground,

especially when common ground
means reaching agreement with industry.

I want to give you another example,

moving from high-profile collaboration

to something that is below ground

both literally and figuratively:

the hydraulic fracturing of natural gas.

Imagine that you purchase a plot of land

not knowing the mineral rights
have been sold.

This is before the fracking boom.

You build your dream home on that plot,

and shortly afterwards,

you discover that a gas company
is building a well pad on your land.

That was the plight
of the Hallowich family.

Within a very short period of time,

they began to complain of headaches,

of sore throats, of itchy eyes,

in addition to the interference
of the noise, vibration

and the bright lights
from the flaring of natural gas.

They were very vocal in their criticisms,

and then they fell silent.

And thanks to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette,
where this image appeared,

and one other newspaper,
we discovered why they fell silent.

The newspapers went to the court and said,
“What happened to the Hallowiches?”

And it turned out the Hallowiches
had made a secret settlement

with the gas operators, and it was
a take-it-or-leave-it settlement.

The gas company said,

you can have a six-figure sum

to move elsewhere
and start your lives again,

but in return

you must promise not to speak
of your experience with our company,

not to speak of your
experience with fracking,

not to speak about the health consequences

that might have been revealed
by a medical examination.

Now, I do not blame
the Hallowiches for accepting

a take-it-or-leave-it settlement

and starting their lives elsewhere.

And one can understand

why the company would wish
to silence a squeaky wheel.

What I want to point the finger at
is the legal and regulatory system,

a system in which there are
networks of agreements

just like this one

which serve to silence people
and seal off data points

from public health experts
and epidemiologists,

a system in which regulators

will even refrain
from issuing a violation notice

in the event of pollution

if the landowner and the gas company

agree to settle.

This is a system which isn’t just
bad from a public health point of view;

it exposes hazards to local families

who remain in the dark.

Now, I have given you two examples
not because they are isolated examples.

They are examples of a systemic problem.

I could share some counterexamples,

the case for example
of the public official

who sues the pharmaceutical company

for concealing the fact

that its antidepressant increases
suicidal thoughts in adolescents.

I can tell you about the regulator
who went after the food company

for exaggerating the purported
health benefits of its yogurt.

And I can tell you about the legislator

who despite heavy lobbying
directed at both sides of the aisle

pushes for environmental protections.

These are isolated examples,

but they are beacons of light
in the darkness,

and they can show us the way.

I began by suggesting that sometimes
we need to engage in conflict.

Governments should tussle with,

struggle with, at times engage
in direct conflict with corporations.

This is not because governments
are inherently good

and corporations are inherently evil.

Each is capable of good or ill.

But corporations understandably
act to promote their commercial interests,

and they do so either sometimes
undermining or promoting the common good.

But it is the responsibility
of governments

to protect and promote the common good.

And we should insist

that they fight to do so.

This is because governments

are the guardians

of public health;

governments are the guardians

of the environment;

and it is governments

that are guardians

of these essential parts
of our common good.

Thank you.

(Applause)

20年前,

当我在伦敦当律师
和人权律师时

,在伦敦的全职法律实践中,

这片土地上的最高法院

还在开会,有人会说
是历史的偶然,

在这里的这栋楼里,

我遇到了一个年轻的
刚刚辞去

英国外交部工作的人。

当我问他“你为什么离开”时,

他告诉我这个故事。 一天早上,

他去找他的老板
说:

“让我们
为中国的侵犯人权行为做点什么吧。”

他的老板回答说:

“我们
对中国侵犯人权的行为无能为力,

因为我们
与中国有贸易关系。”

所以我
的朋友夹着尾巴离开了

,六个月后,
他再次回到他的老板

那里,这次他说,

“让我们
为缅甸的人权做点事情吧,

”当时的称呼是。

他的老板又顿了顿

,说:“哦,但是我们
在缅甸的人权问题上无能为力,

因为我们
和缅甸没有任何贸易关系。”

(笑声)

这是
他知道他必须离开的那一刻。

影响他的不仅仅是虚伪

是他的政府不愿意

与其他政府发生冲突,

在紧张的讨论

中,无辜的人
一直受到伤害。

我们经常被告知

,冲突是坏的

,妥协是好的;

冲突是坏的,

但共识是好的;

冲突是坏的

,合作是好的。

但在我看来,

这样的世界观太简单
了。

除非我们知道谁在打架,

他们为什么打架

以及他们如何打架,否则我们无法知道冲突是否不好。

如果妥协

伤害到
不在谈判桌

旁的人、脆弱的人、被剥夺权力的

人以及我们
有义务保护的人,妥协就会彻底腐烂。

现在,您可能
对律师

争论冲突的好处

并制造妥协问题持怀疑态度,

但我确实也有资格担任调解员,

而且这些天,我花
时间免费讨论道德问题。

因此,正如我的银行经理喜欢提醒我的那样,
我是向下移动的。

但如果你接受我的论点,

它不仅应该改变
我们个人生活的方式

,我希望暂时把它
放在一边,

而且它会改变
我们对

公共卫生和环境等重大问题的思考方式。

让我解释。

美国的每个中学生,包括

我 12 岁的女儿,都

知道
政府有三个部门

,立法部门、行政部门
和司法部门。

詹姆斯麦迪逊写道:

“如果说
在我们的宪法中

,甚至在任何自由宪法中,有什么原则

比其他任何原则都更神圣的话,

就是立法权、行政权
和司法权之间的区别。”

现在,制定者不仅仅

关心权力的集中
和行使。

他们也明白
影响的危险。

如果法官参与制定这些法律,他们就无法确定
法律的合宪性,

如果他们

与其他
政府部门

合作


与他们建立密切关系,他们也无法追究其他政府部门的责任。

正如一位著名学者所说,宪法是

“对斗争的邀请”。

当这些分支机构确实
相互斗争时,我们人民就会得到服务。

现在,我们认识
到斗争的重要性

不仅在

我们政府部门之间的公共部门。

在私营部门,

在公司之间的关系中,我们也知道这一点。

让我们想象一下,两家美国航空公司
聚在一起并

同意他们不会将

经济舱机票的价格
降到每张 250 美元以下。

那是合作,
有些人会说是勾结,

而不是竞争

,我们人民受到伤害,

因为我们为门票支付了更多。

类似地想象一下,
两家航空公司会说,

“看,航空公司 A,我们将走
从洛杉矶到芝加哥的航线,”

而航空公司 B 说,“我们将走
从芝加哥到华盛顿特区的航线

,我们不会竞争。 "

再次,这是合作
或勾结而不是竞争

,我们人民受到伤害。

因此

当涉及到
政府部门和公共部门之间的关系时,我们理解斗争的重要性

我们也
理解冲突

在企业和私营部门之间的关系中的重要性

但我们忘记的地方


公共与私人之间的关系。

世界各地的政府都在
与工业界

合作解决公共卫生
和环境问题,

通常与

正在制造或加剧
他们试图解决的问题的公司合作。

我们被告知,这些关系

是双赢的。

但是,如果有人输了怎么办?

让我给你一些例子。

一个联合国机构
决定解决一个严重的问题:

印度农村学校的卫生条件差。

他们不仅
与国家和地方政府合作,

还与一家电视公司

和一家大型
跨国汽水公司合作。

为了换取
不到一百万美元,

该公司获得了
为期数月的促销活动的好处,

其中包括

使用公司徽标
和配色方案的 12 小时电视马拉松。

从公司的角度来看,这是一个完全可以理解的安排。

它提高了公司的声誉,

并为其产品创造了品牌忠诚度

但在我看来,


对政府间机构来说

是一个严重的问题,这个机构的使命
是促进可持续生活。 在一个已经在与肥胖症作斗争的国家,

通过增加

由当地稀缺的水资源制成的含糖饮料的消费量,
以及用塑料瓶饮用的含糖饮料

无论
从公共卫生角度

还是从环境角度来看,这都是不可持续的。

为了解决
一个公共卫生问题,

该机构正在播下另一个问题的种子

这只是

在研究一本关于
政府与行业之间关系的书时发现的几十个例子中的一个。

我也可以告诉你

伦敦和整个英国公园的倡议,

涉及同一家公司,
促进锻炼,

或者实际上英国政府

与行业合作创建自愿承诺

而不是监管行业。

这些合作或伙伴关系
已成为公共卫生领域的典范,

从行业的角度来看,它们再一次有意义。

它使他们能够以

威胁最小、

最符合
其商业利益的方式来构建公共卫生问题及其解决方案。

因此,肥胖

成为个人决策

、个人行为、

个人责任
和缺乏体力活动的问题。

如果以这种方式

构建,涉及大公司的跨国食品系统不是问题

再说一次,我不怪行业。

工业自然会
采用影响力战略

来促进其商业利益。

但政府有

责任制定反战略

来保护我们

和共同利益。

政府以这种方式与行业合作时所犯的错误

是,他们将

共同利益

与共同立场混为一谈。

当您与行业合作时,

您必然会

推迟可能促进行业不同意的共同利益的事情

行业不会
同意加强监管,

除非它认为这会
阻止更多的监管,

或者可能会将一些竞争对手
赶出市场。

公司也不能
同意做某些事情,

例如
提高其不健康产品的价格,

因为这会违反

我们已经确立的竞争法。

因此,我们的政府不应

混淆共同利益和共同立场,

尤其是当共同立场
意味着与行业达成协议时。

我想给你举另一个例子,

从高调的合作转向从字面上和比喻

上都在地下的东西

天然气的水力压裂。

想象一下,您购买了一块土地,

却不知道矿权
已被出售。

这是在压裂热潮之前。

你在那块地块上建造了你梦想中的家

,不久之后,

你发现一家天然气公司
正在你的土地上建造一个井垫。

这就是
哈洛维奇家族的困境。

在很短的时间内,

他们开始抱怨头痛

、喉咙痛、眼睛发痒

,此外还有
噪音、振动


天然气燃烧产生的强光的干扰。

他们在批评中非常直言不讳,

然后就沉默了。

多亏了出现这张图片的匹兹堡邮报

和另一份报纸,
我们才发现了他们沉默的原因。

报纸跑到法庭上说:
“万圣节怎么了?”

事实证明,Hallowiches
与天然气运营商达成了秘密和解

,这是
一个要么接受要么放弃的解决方案。

煤气公司说,

你可以有六位数的钱

搬到别处
重新开始你的生活,

但作为回报,

你必须保证不
说你在我们公司的经历,

不说你的
水力压裂经验,

不说 关于体检

可能揭示
的健康后果。

现在,我不
责怪万圣节者接受

了要么接受要么离开的解决方案

并在其他地方开始他们的生活。

人们可以理解

为什么该公司希望
让吱吱作响的车轮安静下来。

我想指出的
是法律和监管体系,

在这个体系中,存在类似这样
的协议网络,这些协议网络

可以使人们保持沉默,
并封锁

公共卫生专家
和流行病学家的数据点,

在这个体系中,监管者

如果土地所有者和燃气公司

同意和解,甚至不会在发生污染时发出违规通知。

从公共卫生的角度来看,这是一个不只是坏的系统;

它使

那些仍处于黑暗中的当地家庭面临危险。

现在,我给你们举了两个例子,
并不是因为它们是孤立的例子。

它们是系统性问题的例子。

我可以分享一些反例,

例如公职

人员起诉制药公司

隐瞒其抗抑郁药增加
青少年自杀念头的事实。

我可以告诉你监管机构
曾追究这家食品

公司夸大其酸奶声称的
健康益处的事。

我可以告诉你有关立法者的情况

,尽管针对过道两边进行了大量游说,但他仍在

推动环境保护。

这些是孤立的例子,

但它们是黑暗中的灯塔

,它们可以为我们指明道路。

我首先建议有时
我们需要参与冲突。

政府应该与公司发生争执、

斗争,有时
甚至直接与公司发生冲突。

这并不是因为
政府本质上是好的,

而公司本质上是坏的。

每个人都有好或坏的能力。

但可以理解的
是,公司会采取行动促进其商业利益

,他们这样做有时会
破坏或促进共同利益。

但政府有责任

保护和促进共同利益。

我们应该

坚持他们为此而战。

这是因为政府

是公共卫生的守护

者;

政府是环境的守护

者;

政府

是我们共同利益

的这些重要部分
的守护者。

谢谢你。

(掌声)