The real reason you procrastinate WorkLife with Adam Grant Audio only
Transcriber: Erin Gregory
Reviewer: Krystian Aparta
Margaret Atwood:
It’s like going into a very cold lake
when you’ve decided
you’re going to go swimming in it.
Adam Grant: This is how one famous
writer describes procrastination.
MA: You put your foot in, you take it out.
You put it in again …
It’s still too cold. (Laughs)
You think, “Am I going to do this or not?
Am I really going to do this?”
No, yes, no, yes.
That goes on for a while.
If you’re going to do it,
you run in screaming.
AG: So says Margaret Atwood.
She’s best known as the acclaimed author
of “The Handmaid’s Tale”
and has sold many millions of books.
But you might not know
that she’s also a self-proclaimed
world expert on procrastination.
MA: Yeah, I’ve racked up,
you know, years and years of it.
AG: Because Margaret
doesn’t do anything halfway.
MA: If you’re going to do something,
might as well be good at it, right?
I’d hate to be a failed procrastinator.
(Both laugh)
(Music)
AG: She can procrastinate anywhere
with the greatest of ease.
At home, in a coffee shop,
even up in the air.
MA: I think it’s always more fun
to watch movies on planes than to work.
(Both laugh)
A film called “Captain Underpants”
was on the menu.
So I was watching “Captain Underpants,”
which well repaid my time.
And then the plane landed
and I forgot that my computer was on it
and did not tell my publishers
that I had left this computer
with all of this correspondence
about the heavily embargoed novel,
“The Testaments,” on the plane.
AG: Oh my gosh.
MA: Yeah, it was very bad.
I won’t do it again soon.
AG: But here’s the thing.
Despite being a world-class
procrastinator,
Margaret does not turn
manuscripts in late.
MA: No, no, no, no, no.
I do not miss deadlines.
I would consider it
dishonorable to miss a deadline.
AG: How does she manage
her procrastination so productively?
And can you?
(Music)
I’m Adam Grant and this is WorkLife,
my podcast with TED.
I’m an organizational psychologist.
I study how to make work not suck.
In this show,
I’m inviting myself inside the minds
of some truly unusual people,
because they’ve mastered something
I wish everyone knew about work.
(Music)
Today, procrastination,
and why it’s not as much
of a character flaw
or as impossible to
overcome as you might think.
(Music)
Thanks to Hilton
for sponsoring this episode.
(Music)
(Music fades out)
Procrastination
is intentionally delaying a task
that needs to be done
even though you know
it will come with a cost.
Instead of working,
you might find yourself
watching cat videos on YouTube,
looking in your fridge
to see if something new has magically
appeared in the last 10 minutes,
or deciding your productivity problem
is that you type too slow,
then taking a typing test online
to confirm your suspicion,
and then taking it over
and over to get a better score.
If you’re like most people,
you first became acquainted
with procrastination in school.
Somewhere between 80 and 95 percent
of students procrastinate.
And half of them do it chronically.
But it doesn’t just
disappear when you graduate.
About 15 to 20 percent of adults
are chronic procrastinators.
I’m not one of them.
I’m the opposite, a precrastinator,
someone who feels pressure
to start tasks immediately
and finish them ahead of schedule.
Although I did get sucked
into that typing test.
(Music)
But if a task is important,
I tend to get it done before the deadline.
And my colleagues tell me
that can be annoying.
I’m constantly late to meetings.
My excuse? “I was busy finishing
another project early.”
(Music)
So I’m pretty fascinated
by chronic procrastinators,
who live on the opposite extreme.
Like Douglas Adams, who wrote
“The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.”
On a typical writing day,
he would sit in the bath for hours,
waiting for an idea to come.
By the time he got out and got dressed,
he often forgot the idea,
which would lead him
right back to the bathtub.
It was so bad that he once had his editor
lock him in a hotel suite
for several weeks.
One that presumably only had a shower.
(Music)
Writers are legendary procrastinators.
The question is why.
And Margaret Atwood has an answer.
MA: I see myself as lazy.
AG: If you’re a procrastinator,
you might have said
the same thing about yourself.
Lazy, slacker, undisciplined.
But is Margaret Atwood,
bestselling author of
dozens of books, really lazy?
Fuschia Sirois: No, no.
That’s one of the common
myths about procrastination,
it’s just people being lazy.
AG: Fuschia Sirois
is a psychologist in the UK.
Her specialty is studying procrastination,
and she knows that the root
of procrastination
is actually something
far sneakier than laziness.
It’s not about avoiding work.
It’s about avoiding feelings.
More specifically, negative emotions.
FS: We say at the core,
procrastination is about mood regulation.
So a task may elicit lack of confidence,
feelings of incompetency,
insecurity, fear of failure, anxiety.
You put that task aside,
and you’ve just regulated your mood.
Now you feel better.
It’s like, “Ah, great.
I don’t have to think about it.”
AG: You know more about this than most.
Do you still procrastinate?
FS: Yeah well, you know,
I’m human so yeah, I do procrastinate.
The classic thing for me is, you know,
I’ve got this paper to write.
And I’m thinking,
this is going to be really hard.
And I build it up
into something that’s really huge.
And you know, after a couple
of days of that,
I just kind of go,
“Right, I’m procrastinating.
I’ve just got to get on with this.”
AG: Everyone procrastinates on something.
If you’re on top of your work,
there’s probably still a task
you’re delaying,
even though you know it comes at a cost.
FS: You’ve got to buy
a present for your aunt
that you only see once
a year, for example.
And she tends to be really picky.
And so now you’re thinking,
“Oh, if I make a mistake, she’s just going
to give me that look.” (Laughs)
AG: This doesn’t sound
like a hypothetical example.
(Fuschia laughs)
AG: I’m not going to ask you
to name your aunt, but …
(Both laugh)
AG: If you still think you’re just lazy,
here’s some proof.
Take a look at what you do
while you’re procrastinating.
Some of those tasks actually take
a lot of energy and effort.
FS: You’ll see some, you know,
classic chronic procrastinators.
They will have the neatest houses.
Everything will be organized.
All the dishes will be done.
Everything will be clean.
But the big looming task
that they’re supposed to be doing
isn’t being done.
AG: If you’re actively
doing something else,
it’s pretty clear that you’re not lazy.
You’re avoiding a task
that stirs up negative emotions.
And that can have consequences.
At work, chronic procrastinators
are less productive than their peers.
And their health suffers for it.
FS: If you’re a chronic procrastinator,
you have higher levels of stress.
You have poor sleep quality.
You tend to not exercise as much.
You might eat more junk food,
especially because you’re stressed.
If you’re a chronic procrastinator,
you’ve got difficulty regulating yourself.
AG: Which can lead
to depression and anxiety.
FS: They actually put off seeking help
for those mental health issues,
which doesn’t help either.
AG: Oh no, so they meta-procrastinate.
FS: Yes, definitely.
People feel guilty
when they procrastinate.
But that guilt doesn’t operate
in the same way
that it does for most people.
Guilt could be a motivating emotion.
AG: Yeah, it’s like the Erma Bombeck line
that guilt is the gift
that keeps on giving.
FS: Yeah, well, for procrastinators,
what it gives is more procrastination.
AG: Ah, so unfair.
Even if you’re not
a chronic procrastinator,
there are certain types of tasks
that you might have a habit of postponing.
FS: Might be a procrastinogenic
environment because …
(Adam laughs)
AG: Did you say “procrastinogenic?”
FS: Yes, procrastinogenic.
AG: What a great phrase.
(Fuschia laughs)
FS: Well, it’s an environment
that can evoke procrastination.
AG: I am absolutely
using this as an excuse.
It’s not me, it’s not
that I lack willpower.
This is just a very procrastinogenic task.
FS: Yeah, tasks
that don’t give you autonomy,
that lack structure,
and that are ambiguous.
AG: Is that why so many writers
struggle with procrastination?
FS: It could be.
Because yeah, when you’re writing,
who’s telling you what the next thing is
you’re supposed to be
writing, right? You are.
I mean, it brings up uncertainty
about yourself.
It brings up doubts about whether
you know what you’re doing, right?
We all have that feeling
from time to time.
(Music)
AG: You might find yourself
procrastinating to avoid anxiety,
confusion or boredom.
Whichever your flavor of procrastination,
psychology points
to a couple ways to curb it.
For one, you can start by trying to be
a little kinder to yourself
about your past procrastination.
Yep, this actually makes a difference.
FS: Our emotions can actually change
the way we view the task.
AG: Instead of beating yourself up,
show yourself a little compassion.
Relieve the guilt.
Research reveals
that after students put off
studying for an exam,
those who forgive themselves
are actually less likely to procrastinate
on preparing for the next test.
Fuschia and her colleagues have found
that it helps to remind yourself
that you’re not the only one
suffering from procrastination.
It’s part of the human condition.
Everyone does it on occasion.
FS: Sometimes I will just
sort of step back and go, “Yep, yep.
I’m just being like every other
procrastinator in the planet.”
And you’re acknowledging
what you’re doing,
accepting responsibility for it.
But you’re not feeding back
into the negative emotions
that probably put you in that place
where you wanted
to procrastinate in the first place.
AG: It turns out that self-compassion
is especially hard
if you’re a neurotic perfectionist,
the kind of person
who constantly beats yourself up
for never doing work that’s good enough.
If that’s you,
you might take a cue
from productive perfectionists
and stop judging your work
before you’ve even produced it.
In other words,
don’t criticize yourself
while you’re creating.
Try waiting until you’ve finished
developing your ideas
before you worry about evaluating them.
That’s something Margaret Atwood advises.
MA: The wastepaper basket is your friend.
So go ahead, say something.
It may be the wrong thing,
but you can throw that out
and no one will ever read your dumb thing
that you’ve put on them.
AG: Margaret has a long history
of procrastinating
to escape negative emotions.
MA: I procrastinated
about starting “The Handmaid’s Tale.”
I procrastinated for about three years.
I tried to write
a more normal novel instead,
because I thought it was just too batty.
AG: Too batty, really?
MA: Yeah, I mean it
doesn’t seem very batty now.
But think of when this was.
It was in the early ’80s.
Yeah, it just seemed a bit too batty.
AG: Margaret wasn’t just worried
that the plot was far-fetched.
Her fears actually kept her
from writing the book sooner.
MA: You don’t know who’s going to read it.
You’ve got no idea.
You don’t know
whether they’ll like it or not.
It’s not something you can anticipate
or have any control over, really.
AG: Years ago,
when asked to describe
her writing routine,
Margaret said she would spend the morning
procrastinating and worrying.
Then plunge into the manuscript
in a frenzy of anxiety
around three o’clock,
when it looked as though
she might not get anything done.
It still happens to her sometimes.
MA: Scrolling around on the news
certainly can get me sucked in.
AG: Luckily, Margaret
has come up with a unique strategy
for dealing with
her procrastination habit.
And it’s a trick that lines up
with what some researchers recommend.
MA: I had another name
that I grew up with,
and that gave me two names.
So I had a double identity.
So Margaret does the writing
and the other one does everything else.
AG: Her alter ego’s name is Peggy.
MA: It’s a Scottish
diminutive of “Margaret.”
AG: Do you actually refer to yourself
by both identities in your head?
MA: Absolutely.
AG: Seriously?
MA: Well, you see
what a range it gives me.
AG: Do you have conversations
between Margaret and Peggy?
MA: No, they lead quite separate lives.
Peggy does the laundry.
Now there is, of course, some overlap.
Because sometimes
when Peggy’s doing the laundry,
Margaret is thinking
about what is being written.
Deciding what to write
is done by Margaret.
Deciding when to write
is sometimes a tug of war.
AG: Margaret’s dual identity strategy
isn’t as strange as it sounds.
Psychologists have long observed
that we have two selves,
the want self and the should self.
Your want self runs on emotions.
It’s drawn to whatever avoids pain
or brings pleasure in the short run.
That’s Margaret watching
“Captain Underpants.”
MA: Oh, you’d rather be
watching “Captain Underpants,”
let’s face it.
AG: The should self is more concerned
with doing the right thing
in the long run.
That’s Peggy.
MA: The ordinary person who walks the dog
and eats the bran flakes for breakfast.
AG: In the moment,
the want self is often stronger.
No matter how hard
you try to push yourself
to do the work you should be doing,
it’s easy to get pulled into the show
you want to be binging.
Like, maybe, “The Handmaid’s Tale”?
(Music)
That’s the bad news.
The good news is that the should
self is smarter.
You can outwit the want self
by planning ahead.
This is a second strategy
for beating procrastination
that science teaches us.
You don’t have to worry
about resisting temptation
if you remove temptation.
In college, my roommate Palmer
was brilliant at this.
Whenever it was time to study for an exam,
he would ask me to hide his video games.
You’ve probably done it too.
Your should self puts the alarm clock
across the room at night
so your want self can’t reach
the snooze button in the morning.
You prevent procrastination
by taking willpower out of the equation.
Or maybe your should self
announces to the world
that you’re signing off social media
so your want self
won’t get sucked back in,
which is what Peggy does for Margaret,
who loves Twitter and sometimes posts
random questions that pop up.
MA: For instance, I put up a picture
of a weird mushroom,
and said, what is this?
Because I couldn’t find it.
(Adam laughs)
AG: When you’re tweeting,
how often does that happen
while you’re writing?
Do you actually interrupt yourself
or get distracted by social media?
MA: No, no. No, no way, no.
I might get distracted
before I take the plunge
into the writing burrow
but not while I’m in it.
AG: How do you prevent
that from happening?
Is there a mental firewall of sorts?
MA: You turn it off.
AG: For many people,
easier said than done.
You just turn it off and that’s it?
MA: Just don’t go there.
AG: It can help to schedule
a specific task in your calendar,
the same way you schedule meetings.
In one experiment,
writers were randomly assigned
to plan daily writing sessions.
They were over four times more productive,
and they didn’t lose any creativity.
Even scheduling 15 minutes a day
was enough to make some progress.
That’s time management.
You can also think
about timing management.
When do you procrastinate?
Procrastinators tend to be night owls.
The start of the work day is out of sync
with their circadian rhythms.
If that’s you,
and you have the flexibility,
try moving a task you procrastinate
to later in the day, when the wants
might be less tempting.
One of my favorite tactics
for outsmarting my want self
is a twist on the to-do list.
I found out that Margaret does it, too.
MA: So the list would include
everything from “call the tree guy”
to, you know, “clean the furnace.”
If it’s not on the list,
it doesn’t happen.
AG: That’s her to-do list.
But she also has a to-don’t list,
a set of activities
to avoid while working.
Think about your to-don’t list.
What would you put on it?
When I’m working on my boring
procrastinogenic tasks,
like reading contracts
and proofreading articles,
my to-don’t list includes
don’t play online Scrabble,
don’t turn on the TV –
unless I already know
what I want to watch,
and don’t scroll
on social media after posting.
Peggy also puts social media
on Margaret’s to-don’t list.
To hold herself accountable,
she makes a public commitment,
tweeting that she’s signing off to write.
MA: “I’m about to write, goodbye.”
And that’s about going off
social media for a while,
and reassuring people
that I’m not dead yet,
or possibly disappointing them
that I’m not dead yet.
(Adam laughs)
AG: I can’t imagine
that anyone is disappointed.
MA: They would be even more excited
to hear from me if I were dead.
They would be really excited then.
(Both laugh)
She came back from the dead.
AG: I’m having a hard time reconciling
your self-description
of being lazy and procrastinating
with your enormous productivity.
MA: Well, just consider
some elementary math.
Take the number of years I’ve been alive
and divide it by the number
of books I’ve written. (Laughs)
AG: Alright, so you
average less than one a year.
MA: Yes, and some are quite short.
AG: And you don’t feel like that’s a lot.
MA: No, it’s just, you know,
they accumulate.
AG: Maybe you can start forgiving
your want self for procrastinating.
Maybe you’ll succeed at putting
some of the should tasks on your calendar
and some wants on your to-don’t list.
Still, you can’t shake the feeling that
if only you had more time,
you could get more done.
But what if the opposite is true?
More on that after the break.
(Music)
OK, this is going to be
a different kind of ad.
I played a personal role in selecting
the sponsors for this podcast,
because they all have interesting
cultures of their own.
Today we’re going inside
the workplace at Hilton.
(Music)
(Music fades out)
(Music)
It’s not uncommon for people to say
“My coworkers feel like my family.”
But I recently met someone
who takes that sentiment
to a whole new level.
Jessica Clingman-Kerns: The DoubleTree
by Hilton Sonoma Wine Country
is my second home.
Everybody here is my family.
AG: That’s Jessica Clingman-Kerns,
a team member at Hilton.
In October 2017,
when wildfires swept through wine country,
her parents' home burned down.
JCK: The fire just kind of completely
took over their entire neighborhood,
and their house was gone.
It’s hard. (Voice breaking)
My brother had passed away
just a couple months prior,
so all of his things were in that house.
Just a lot of parts of our life
that we’ll never get back.
AG: It was devastating.
But after sitting with her grief
for just a moment,
Jessica sprang into action.
JCK: I emptied out
my boyfriend’s Tahoe (Laughs)
and put all my camping stuff in the car.
And then I went to Walmart
and maxed out a credit card
with just toothbrushes
and toothpaste and deodorant,
and just little things for someone
who left their house at midnight
and had nothing.
And I just started driving.
AG: She headed to the DoubleTree,
to set up a makeshift relief operation.
A manager provided her
with a small conference room,
which quickly became too small
of a conference room.
JCK: I think everyone at the hotel
thought I was crazy because I was like,
“Oh, I just need a little bit more space.”
(Laughs)
And then they started seeing semitrucks.
So my one little room
turned into 10,000 square feet,
100 volunteers,
millions of dollars in donations.
AG: Of the thousands of Californians
who lost their homes,
several were Jessica’s colleagues.
JCK: That didn’t stop them
from volunteering
or being a part
of everything either, so …
I could not have done it
without their support.
AG: Each year, Hilton’s CEO
presents the Light and Warmth Award
to a dozen of their 425,000 team members.
It’s the highest honor in the company,
given to people
who embody Hilton’s vision,
mission and values.
JCK: I knew about
the Light and Warmth Award,
but I never thought
that I would even be thought of.
AG: Experiments show
that it’s not just
the recipients of recognition
who end up performing better.
Their colleagues do, too.
Awards are not just a powerful way
to show the winners that they’re valued.
They’re also an important way
to signal to everyone
what’s valued in the culture.
A few months after the relief effort,
Jessica headed to a meeting,
where she was surprised with a phone call.
It was Hilton’s CEO.
She hadn’t just been nominated
for the award, she won.
JCK: So they awarded me
with one of those big obnoxious checks.
But I looked at the other side
and it said 10,000 dollars.
And I was like, “Oh no, come on.
This is a joke.
Where’s the camera,” right?
But as soon as it kind of
hit me like, I thought,
“How else can I help
people with this money?”
I can sponsor families
for the holidays this year.
I can donate some of this to rebuilds.
AG: One of the many people amazed
was Jessica’s dad.
Jessica’s Dad: When I think back on it,
just seeing all the work and caring
that Jessie put into helping
the entire community,
I mean, that in itself makes up
for any losses that we had.
JCK: It’s just in my
nature to help other people.
That’s why I love hospitality.
(Music)
AG: Hilton was named Fortune’s number one
Best Company to Work For in the US,
in both 2019 and 2020.
And one of the best places
to work for Millennials
by the Great Place to Work Institute.
Learn more at jobs.hilton.com.
(Music)
AG: Procrastination
is the opposite of productivity.
It’s wasting time,
or at least using it pretty inefficiently.
We’ve talked about
how individuals can avoid that,
but I also want to know
what organizations can do about it,
which might mean thinking differently
about what it means to be productive.
Rutger Bregman: I think the first question
we should ask ourselves
is “What is work,
and what is productivity?”
Nowadays, we say
work is just this thing you do
in a hierarchical relationship
with an employer.
You get a salary, you pay taxes over that,
and that is what we call work.
AG: Meet Rutger Bregman.
RB: I’m a Dutch historian and author.
AG: And why do you feel the need
to mention that you’re Dutch?
RB: That’s a good question.
Maybe because the Netherlands
is the country
with the shortest
working week in the world.
And also, we have incredibly high
productivity per hour.
So it’s actually
a good example of my thesis
that actually, if you want
to be more productive,
you’ve got to work less.
AG: How would you define productivity?
What do you consider
a really productive day at work?
It probably has something to do
with time and with output.
How many hours you spent
actually paying attention to your tasks
instead of scrolling on Instagram,
how many boxes
on your to-do list you checked.
But what if you redefine productivity?
RB: My definition would be
work or being productive
is just doing something
that is valuable, that is useful.
(Music)
AG: I like this.
I think of productivity as using your time
to accomplish things of value
to you and others.
Whether you use your time well
depends on how much of it you have.
Psychologists find that being busy,
having less time,
motivates us to finish tasks faster.
We often procrastinate less
when we have more on our plate.
(Music)
And there’s some evidence
that people with multiple children
are more productive at work
than people with one or none.
New studies suggest
that parents are more absorbed
in their job tasks while at work,
because they know
how much they have to juggle
later at home.
I guess the old saying is true.
If you want something done,
give it to a busy person.
(Music)
Of course, your ideal solution
to procrastination
is not going to be having kids,
or having even more kids.
But this research suggests
that when you have less time
to complete your tasks,
or more tasks to complete in a given time,
it can curb procrastination
by changing your emotions.
When you’re busy,
you’re more motivated by fear and guilt
about falling behind
than whatever unpleasant feelings
you have around the task itself.
But when you have a lot of free time,
you don’t feel that urgency to finish.
There’s a name for it, Parkinson’s law.
The idea that work contracts or expands
to fill the time available.
(Music)
RB: I actually experienced this
when I was working
at a traditional Dutch newspaper.
And I remember all those afternoons.
I’m not very productive
during the afternoon, you know.
So around 4:00pm, I just want
to start bothering my colleagues
and making stupid jokes.
AG: Rutger has proposed
what might seem like a radical solution
to those episodes of procrastination –
shortening the workweek.
It’s not as crazy as it sounds,
because the whole notion that 40 hours
is a magic number for productivity
is kind of arbitrary.
RB: If you look at the history
of this, it was Henry Ford,
already at the beginning
of the 20th century,
who already found out
that when he moved his workers
to a 40-hour workweek,
they were more productive.
And he didn’t do it
because he cared so much
about his employees.
You know, he cared about his wallet.
That was the reason why he did it.
It was called the American way.
Working less, it’s the American way.
AG: And actually, Rutger points out
that for more than a century,
workweeks were getting
shorter and shorter.
In the mid-1800s,
people often worked 70-hour weeks.
Then, around the turn of the century,
workweeks started dropping
from 60 to 50 hours a week.
RB: And then after the Second World War,
economist John Maynard Keynes said
we’ll have a 15-hour workweek in 2030.
AG: I promise this is going to tie back
to procrastination.
I’m just putting it off
for a little while,
because I want to know
why we’re working so many hours today.
There are lots of possible explanations,
from rising competition
and globalization and consumerism
to being obsessed with status at work,
to just believing more is better.
Whatever the cause,
you’ll be familiar
with what the result looks like now.
RB: Probably, at this moment
around the globe,
there are millions of people
sitting in offices,
just waiting, browsing Facebook,
sending emails to people
they don’t really like,
writing reports
that no one’s ever going to read.
I think we could
easily move to a four-day,
three-day workweek,
and be just as productive.
You just squash out all the slack
that’s currently in the system.
AG: How many hours do you actually work?
RB: I think about 50 to 60.
If you would define
my work as, you know …
Am I working right now? Is this work?
AG: (Laughs) I don’t know,
does it feel like work?
Are you contributing something
valuable to the world?
RB: Well, you decide that. (Both laugh)
No, I find it very hard to
define what work is for me.
AG: I wonder then,
is there some degree of irony
that a guy who works 50 to 60 hours a week
is calling for a 15-hour workweek?
RB: Yes, it’s very ironical, I know that.
AG: I also think I work more hours
than you do in a typical week.
And I’ve also called
for shorter workweeks.
So at heart, I wanted to know
that I wasn’t the only
hypocrite out there.
(Rutger laughs)
RB: Yeah, we’re both hypocrites.
AG: Yeah, but I think maybe
the difference between
our lives and the policy changes
we’re calling for
is we choose to work
this number of hours, right?
I work as many hours as I do
because I find my work
enjoyable and meaningful.
And what I want is for the hundreds
of millions of people
who hate their work
or who find it extremely stressful
to have the freedom
to work less if they so choose.
RB: Yeah, and you could
also frame it like this.
I think that often, we need to work less
in order to do more, right?
To have more time for the things
that we really care about.
(Music)
AG: We should think about productivity
not as the volume of output
but as the value of output.
And if we’re going to do that,
then we need to start measuring work
in something beyond hours,
which is starting to happen.
Leaders are beginning to realize
there’s a big difference
between working long hours
and doing worthwhile work.
(Music)
Finland’s new prime minister
has spoken in support
of a four-day workweek
and a six-hour work day.
In the US, Shake Shack
is trying out a four-day week
for managers at many of their locations.
And recently, Microsoft Japan
tested the four-day workweek.
Productivity climbed by 40 percent there.
In part because of more focused attention,
and in part because they got rid
of unnecessary distractions
by making meetings shorter.
But my favorite example
comes from another company
that has gone to the extreme
to help people use their time
more productively.
Even people who are chronic
procrastinators.
Jade Walker: I was definitely
not employee of the year
or anything like that. (Laughs)
Just a whole lot of procrastination.
AG: Jade Walker has struggled
with procrastination in the past.
Maybe because she lives
in a beautiful part of New Zealand.
JW: I’m based in Takapuna,
which is a suburb of Auckland.
It’s, like, a beach town.
AG: Are you a surfer?
JW: No, I’ve got two little kids. (Laughs)
So mom life is how I spend my spare time,
chasing them around.
AG: But at work, she found herself
getting distracted
by another kind of surfing.
JW: Oh, I was definitely
an internet surfer.
Online shopping, talking to my friends.
This is really bad,
but I used to do
our grocery shopping online
and it gets delivered.
AG: I love the efficiency of that, though.
(Both laugh)
JW: My old boss probably
wouldn’t agree, maybe.
AG: Then she took
a new job in estate planning,
creating wills for people in the hospital
and for navy soldiers about to deploy.
Jade’s new company, Perpetual Guardian,
does something unusual.
They offer a four-day workweek.
New employees start out at five days,
and if they prove their productivity
in the first few months,
they get to go down to four days.
It had a big impact on Jade.
JW: Every weekend,
I get a screen time report.
And it used to be horrendously bad.
My husband would see it sometimes,
and he’d be like, “Oh my God,
you spend four hours on your phone a day.”
I’m like … (Embarrassed sound) Yeah.
(Jade laughs)
But now, like during the day,
I don’t have time.
So my screen time, I’m proud to say,
is between one to two hours.
A lot less,
due to the fact that I’m being
a lot more productive at work.
AG: Congratulations.
JW: Thank you.
AG: It’s one of the smartest
motivators I’ve ever seen.
If your productivity backslides,
you go back to a regular workweek.
If you’re efficient and effective,
the reward is that you get to work less.
JW: Yes, that’s a big incentive
to not procrastinate.
We don’t have a lot of time
to procrastinate anymore.
You just sort of get in there
and get everything done.
AG: It’s completely changed
her work process.
Now, each morning,
she spends 15 minutes planning her day.
She color-codes emails
and writes lists of priorities.
All this helps her
complete one task at a time
and move on to the next one,
instead of trying
to do three things at once.
Her productivity and her focus
have improved.
JW: Going back to five,
I don’t know what I would do
with an extra day at work now.
AG: Grocery orders.
JW: (Laughs) Yeah, exactly,
shopping, long breaks.
AG: Are you saying
you would procrastinate,
if you had a fifth day?
JW: Yes, I probably would.
Now that I’m used to getting
everything done in four,
I think I’d have so much extra time.
So I probably would procrastinate,
because yeah, I’d have to fill in
the day somehow.
AG: You probably don’t have the luxury
of just deciding to work fewer hours.
If you’re an hourly
retail employee, for example,
your income will take a hit.
But the shorter workweek
is a bold demonstration
that it’s possible to manage
our work lives differently,
more efficiently.
In any given moment,
we will always have dilemmas
about whether to work
and what to work on.
But take it from Margaret Atwood,
the task you’re putting off
isn’t always the one you hate.
It might be the one you fear,
the one that’s ultimately
the most worth pursuing.
At least, that’s how it was
for “The Handmaid’s Tale.”
MA: I did try to write
this more normal novel
and it really just did not work out.
So that was a signal that I had to write
the batty one or nothing.
AG: If you’re going to
do the task eventually,
you might as well spare yourself the agony
and start it sooner.
MA: I call that “white rabbit syndrome.”
AG: From “Alice in Wonderland”?
MA: “I’m late, I’m late, I’m late.”
AG: “No time to say hello, goodbye.”
MA: “That’s it, got to go.”
(Music)
AG: Next time on WorkLife.
Conrey Callahan: This feeling
of being trapped in this system
where you’re on, like, a hamster wheel.
You know, you’re kind of,
like, doing a lot,
but is it really changing anything?
AG: Job burnout seems to be everywhere.
But it’s not inevitable.
(Music)
WorkLife is hosted by me, Adam Grant.
The show is produced
by TED with Transmitter Media.
Our team includes Colin Helms,
Gretta Cohn, Dan O’Donnell,
Constanza Gallardo, Grace Rubenstein,
Michelle Quint, Angela Cheng
and Anna Phelan.
This episode was produced
by Jessica Glazer.
Our show is mixed by Rick Kwan.
Original music by Hansdale Hsu
and Allison Leyton-Brown.
Ad stories produced
by Pineapple Street Studios.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Accenture, BetterUp, Hilton and SAP.
For their research,
thanks to Tim Pychyl on procrastination,
Max Bazerman, Katy Milkman and colleagues
on want / should selves,
Keith Wilcox and colleagues on being busy,
Tracy Dumas and Jill Perry-Smith
on absorption at work,
and Bob Boice on scheduling
writing sessions.
And thanks to Candice Faktor
for the amazing introduction
to Margaret Atwood.
(Music)
MA: OK, so here’s the story.
We were throwing a party
at our house for some writers.
And there they were, all milling around.
And then this young woman,
who was about 35,
said she was having a heart attack.
Then I called 911
and the paramedics arrived,
lumpety-bump up the steps.
I love paramedics.
So in they come,
and here’s the conversation.
First paramedic:
“Do you know whose house this is?”
Second paramedic: “No, whose house is it?”
First paramedic:
“It’s Margaret Atwood’s house.”
Second paramedic:
“Margaret Atwood? Is she still alive?”
(Adam laughs)