How we can navigate the pandemic with courage and hope Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks
[Applause]
hello everyone.welcome is the latest of
our Ted connects a daily conversation
with you the global Ted community in
this strange era of the virus goodness I
hope everyone’s doing okay you got a
safe weekend that you’re managing this
crazy emotional roller coaster we’re all
on that your loved ones are safe and
you’re finding Tom at least some new
ways to engage that you hadn’t thought
about before this all happened
I don’t know we’re all trying to figure
out new things together by not touching
your face like I just did I’m still by
the end of this I swear I will have this
under control or me maybe not
so last week I was joined here by
Whitney Pennington Rogers you’ll be back
really soon but because we’re it looks
like we’re going to do this for a while
yet we thought it’d be good to share
with you some of the broader faces among
the Ted curation team it takes a lot of
people it turns out to put together wise
voices from all around the world and
today my co-host is the head of that
team Ted’s head of curation Helen
Walters Helen where are you hi great to
see you oh there you are that’s great
great to have you here Helen Helen I’ve
been working at Ted for many years now
and she really you know she’s created
this extraordinary team of curators
specializing in these different areas
and holds the thread together the
strategic direction Helen it’s been
great working with you you do swear a
lot you promised me that maybe live here
you’re you may succeed in controlling
that but we’ll see now I make no
promises at all
not a one oh how are you how have you
survived
we can want you what what struck you
this weekend about this hope is our
situation we’re in
I mean bizarre cold bizarre situation is
right I am in Brooklyn I am here with my
family
and we had a very quiet weekend the
social distancing measures are in place
as I went to the pharmacy this weekend
and you see they taped out moments on
the street where you can stand but it
was pretty quiet here I actually stayed
away from the news as much as possible I
kind of can’t really handle read in the
news so I’m getting news via various
groups that I’m in and also I’m noticing
whenever whenever a news announcement is
made there’ll be a flurry of incoming
texts and communications from my family
in England and elsewhere of like
everything okay how you doing
and so I’m trying to keep my sanity that
way but how about you well I mean
unfortunately haven’t been giving our
friend the news and it doesn’t make you
lots of emotions of leading and going
clipping frustration including some hope
like there seems to be some kind of
consensus emerging among many experts as
far as I can see of you know how
countries can tackle this you know it’s
some form of shut down really hard
probably for at least two months but
then you can probably bring people back
to us so long as you have massive
testing available so that you can
quickly find out if someone’s sick live
that in the bud and then maybe also
there’s a change in conversation about
face masks as well which is interesting
in that like we were all told in the
West don’t don’t bother with them
they’re not they don’t really help you
then I’ll protect you dudes like there’s
a lot of people shifting on that now
that as a group if we wear them we
reduce the chances of spreading the bug
that certainly seems to have played a
role in in Asia anyway that’ll be an
interesting conversation for a future
one of these but I am now going to get
out of your hair and let you introduce
today’s extraordinary guests so do you
see one agent thank you so much for
getting out of my hair Chris I’ve been
waiting for that moment for some time
Allah at last so it gives me great
pleasure to welcome our guest today he
is a spiritual leader he’s the four
Chief Rabbi of the United debreu
congregations of the Commonwealth so I
had to read that to check I didn’t get
it wrong he’s a writer
he’s a thinker he’s a moral leader he’s
just an all-round wonderful person I
have had the pleasure of working with
him on his TED talk back in 2017 I’d
love to welcome rabbi sacks Alan it’s
great to be with you sorry it’s in these
circumstances I’m equally sorry but you
know somehow the technology has arrived
at exactly the right time for us to stay
in touch
virtually if not physically and this is
one of the things you do at Ted
reach out to so many people and connect
them with one another well we’re so
grateful that you can join us where
exactly are you right now and most
importantly how are you well I’m in my
study in our home in golden screen on
the edge of the Jewish ghetto and doing
fine actually I kind of you know and I’m
used to being the lonely man of faith
kind of thing so you know in a sense I
am used to it but hearing the real real
pain of our community and of the country
going through this terrible ordeal yeah
it’s real so back in 2017 you opened
your TED talk with a quote from Thomas
Paine referring to these at the times
that try men’s souls and pain of course
was referring to British tyranny in the
18th century and you were referring to
divided political times in the 21st it’s
it’s not really a stretch sadly to shift
that from politics to the pandemic but I
wonder can you give us a sense of what
you make of these times and more
importantly well you make of our
response to these times well I apologize
for 1776 I really do apologize
lin-manuel Miranda got his own back
deftly and beautifully done I think this
is a traumatic time for the entire globe
and people are going through every
dimension of suffering there is physical
psychological economic the uncertainty
and anxiety about the future they’re not
knowing how long the pandemic will last
they’re not knowing how and when or if
the economy will ever get back in shape
again these are horrific times these are
a collective trauma and the real
distinction is between events that you
live through and events that change you
and I’m hoping that this will come under
the second category because they really
ought to changes it’s not as if we were
in great shape just before all this
began Lobley we weren’t nationally we
weren’t our politics were dysfunctional
our economics for inequitable and
sometimes iniquitous so we were in a bad
place and now we’ve come through a bad
experience together I think there will
be a collective resolve to move to a
better place in the future do you wrote
a piece at the weekend talking about the
how the response to the corona virus
could in fact be similar to the response
we saw after World War two and in
Britain of course the that response
included the launch of the National
Health Service which there’s something I
think many countries are sorely in need
of today but if you had your druthers
how would you see leaders step up to
both deal with the pandemic in its
moment and then also in its aftermath
what would you like to see the leaders
leaders do well don’t forget this
there’s a difference between two kinds
of leadership the leadership that gets
you through the crisis and the
leadership that rebuilds after the
crisis one of the strangest phenomena of
all was the fact that Winston Churchill
whom everyone knew had
can Britain triumphantly through World
War two was not elected as Prime
Minister mediately after the war yes he
was a great leader for war he was not
necessarily a great leader for peace I
don’t think any political leader in the
world right now has a mind to think long
and therefore they will get through the
crisis living from day to day being
guided by scientific experts and we’ve
seen the rebirth of respect for
expertise which is not unimportant but I
hope a new kind of political leader is
about to emerge the young people who
really will be changed by this I don’t
say I’ve got to give back and the first
thing they have to look at is a National
Health Service I mean we in Britain know
the National Health Service is being
overwhelmed at the moment but to think
that 27 million Americans don’t have
health care don’t have health insurance
I mean I’m sorry that is morally
unintelligible to me and so somehow or
other we need a new politics but the day
after and this will come from places
we’re not expecting they certainly not
going to come from the existing
political leadership but I think that
they will have to look at it they’ll
also have to have to look at the economy
as well first of all we were building up
an unsustainable level of individual and
national debt anyway and all of that is
seeing companies collapsing all over the
world
it was untenable before this happened
and finally we’re seeing an American
president you know sending out checks to
people the beginning of what you’ve
spoken about in Ted before you’ve had
speakers dealing with this a guaranteed
basic income who knows if that’s what I
gained to emerge from it new things are
going to emerge no existing leader is
going to have the headspace to see this
but I expect a new kind of political
leadership to emerge in every country
where people have really taken this to
heart
and I suppose the problem is that we
know one cannot take this to heart right
this is really impacting everybody and
some of what’s alarming about some of
the antagonistic rhetoric that we’re
seeing say between the US and China or
you know national leaders trying to
close their borders or look inwards is
that the virus doesn’t care about
borders it doesn’t care about anything
I’m interested in do you see any grass
roots or shoots of this type of
leadership emerging or has anything have
you seen anything that’s given you hope
that this might emerge or that maybe
there are people who might even be able
to overtake some of the national leaders
who are who are maybe not doing what we
might think of as the best job
look I when I was a student which is an
awfully long time ago the early Jurassic
age we had 767 the Six Day War I’m
Jewish we had this nightmare and the
weeks leading up to it we who had been
born after the Holocaust with thinking
given NASA’s threats that we were about
to witness another whole course now that
happened in my first year at university
I think if it hadn’t happened I would be
an accountant I realize you know the
world has changed we can’t you can’t go
through an experience like that and stay
the same so it happens to people when
they say you know we can’t go back to
the way things were so I do see this
happening I do not think the political
leadership of let’s say the United
States and China are behaving terribly
responsibly if the world is suffering
now’s not the time to play ping pong for
years now about the need for a balance
between rights and responsibilities and
I wonder how do you define our personal
responsibility in this moment I think
good
to ask I know it’s a difficult one is
what does this moment ask of me that it
wouldn’t have done at some other time so
I’m doing stuff that I never did before
I’m using I’m using FaceTime live I’m
using zoom I never heard of zoom before
I’m using every means of communication I
can to communicate to as many people as
possible at different level and that is
what I hear me being called to our
neighbors are doing incredible things
just being neighborly because we’ve got
old people living alone here and they’re
just knocking on the doors of getting in
touch with them and so on just listen to
the call what does this moment ask of me
why was I put in this place at this time
I love that and I think it’s one of the
things that has been heartening about
this crisis is seeing how the community
steps up I’m in Brooklyn and New York
and just seeing how people are leaving
notes for neighbors and just checking in
to see if they’re okay or if they need
anything if we can you know those who
are able to go out to the pharmacy or
whatever can go pick something up it
kind of is heartening even though we’re
all scared you know everybody is
frightened of kind of what’s happening
and what’s to come and it’s this weird
hinterland that we’re all in where you
know you kind of know that a crisis is
coming even if it hasn’t hit but we’re
seeing the news and seeing the
overwhelmed you know health services do
you as a spiritual leader I’m sorry go
ahead
no I was just going to say my my one of
our grandchildren our eight year old
granddaughter decided on her own the
knock on the doors of all the houses in
her Street keeping her social distance
and when the door is open saying we live
at number 12 if you need anything come
and knock at our door and I thought you
know that’s what an eight-year-old does
spontaneously I’m feeling quite proud at
the moment
but I think that the there’s a universal
fear that everyone is experiencing even
if they’re not experiencing in the same
way and and fear can be paralyzing do
you in your experience what what advice
do you have for people who are trying to
overcome that fear who are trying to
kind of live in the communal space and
not just retreat to themselves well look
I mean the thing to do is to reach out
in any way that you can because we know
that reaching out and helping someone
makes you feel better makes you feel
more confident boosts your immune system
speeds your recovery from any illness
huge amount of research has been done on
the health benefits of altruism and and
sometimes it’s nothing but a smile at a
passerby at six or eight feet distance
sometimes it’s nothing
sometimes it’s sharing a funny story on
whatsapp you know we had some friends we
went on a holiday with got twenty two
twenty three friends we went on a
holiday in New Zealand a few months ago
they live all over the world and they’ve
been bombarding one another with little
photographs and videos and stuff and so
on that everyone has found a way of
getting out of their confinement
you know I there’s a line in Psalms you
know I animates a karateka I called you
God from my confinement and you answered
me with expenses sometimes those
expenses just psychological but knowing
that you’ve communicated with somebody
made someone smile that’s all you have
to do how do you so you’ve written a lot
we talked about it in your talk and
you’ve written about it in your latest
book about the need to move from I to we
and I have a couple of questions around
this but first of all I wonder if you
can describe exactly what you mean by
that shift I mean that any social animal
needs to be able to do two things
needs to engage in competition and
cooperation without competition die
without cooperation you can’t have a
group you can’t have a society and we
cannot survive on top we have today two
very powerful arenas of competition the
market and the state politics and
economically the market competition for
wealth the state competition for power
but what we’ve been losing is our arenas
of cooperation families communities
charities volunteering and all the rest
of it those things where you search not
for self-interest but for the common
good those things have been weakening
over the past several decades and the
end result is societies become much more
abrasive and unequal and so therefore
how do we move away from that I mean do
we did we need to have such a shift such
a seismic shift such as this in order to
shake us out of our kind of complacency
well I always make sure we observe the
difference by between asking why is this
happened and what then should we do
right this has not happened in order to
make us we conscious it did not happen
in order to boost the sales of my leg at
his book the virus mutates that’s how it
things happen so I’m not asking why this
happened I’m saying now that this has
happened let us really see if it is
unleashed let energies as it has because
communities have grown up I mean virtual
communities have grown up at a speed
that nobody ever thought they would
happen the National Health Service asked
for volunteers to be health auxiliaries
they had over half a million volunteers
in one day now you know that’s quite
something we have a we have a
conservative prime minister right now
you remember Margaret Thatcher famously
said there is no such thing as society
today Boris Johnson said you know what
there is such a thing as society after
all but that’s a big change
chipping in with a couple of questions
from the room and first of all what a
question from our tech department who
said we’re getting bit of noise from the
microphone rubbing against your collar
if there’s a way of smoothing the
microphone away from your collar I don’t
know whether you can even do that it’s
not a big deal doesn’t matter but Chris
I I met you halfway I’m not wearing a
tie anyway I was doing this the first
day and they asked me to correct but
that’s the small thing here’s a question
though after this is from Jennifer on on
after the 1918 flu epidemic the world
did change but not sure for the better
because the rise of fascist ideologies
why should we be optimistic that the
present disruption is leading us to a
better place
Chris I have to make a distinction which
is readily important between optimism
and hope optimism is the belief that
things will get better hope is the
belief that if we work hard enough
together we can make things better it
needs no courage only a certain naivety
to be an optimist but it needs sometimes
a great deal of courage to have hope
I’ve tried to bring a message of hope
not of optimism we know that World War
one was supposed to be the war to end
all wars and it didn’t end all war we
know that the flu epidemic which they
have taken between 20 and 50 million
lives did not suddenly create a we
society we know all the bad things that
happen the great crash the thirties
depression and so on and in the end the
explosion of evil that was World War two
though I’m not being optimistic here
there could be another road that people
will go down a nationalist road
which sees the rise of far-right parties
in Europe and the breakup of the
European Union
further tensions between the United
States and China heaven alone knows what
Russia will do in all this mix there are
horrendous possibilities here that’s why
we need to work very hard together to
make sure that we take the possible good
benefits out of this number one the
understanding that the whole of humanity
has been brought to its knees by one
tiny virus we are we feel the we of
humanity as a whole number two that in
the end the only effective political
force that’s worked is the nation let’s
have one nation and not a divided nation
and number three we’ve seen the growth
locally of community spirit like we’ve
never had before that’s the weave
community I don’t think any of these
things are automatic I think they will
require determination wisdom and great
courage they will require leadership and
by the way that question wasn’t from
Jennifer on Facebook Jennifer this is a
member of our tech team before I did the
question to me though but here’s another
question from from Facebook which is
what coping strategies can religion
offer in the current circumstances well
prayer helps it actually helps if you
want specifically to know what to say
read The Book of Psalms book of Psalms
is the greatest source of comfort it
certainly was to me when I’ve been ill
was to my late father when he went
through the many operations at the end
of his life I think faith that God is
with you giving you the strength to come
through this faith that you place your
life in his hands these are powerful
things they helped me go through a
number of life challenging illnesses
that marrying the right woman of course
but I mean
I think faith helps the other thing
that’s worth listening to is now that so
many people are living in isolation
somebody had the bright idea of asking
that and Sharansky there was in pretty
much solitary confinement for nine years
by the KGB what did he do to stay sane
and he came up with some pretty good
principles that I that I think he want
to share with you number one focus on
what you can control
don’t worry about the rest number two
keep your mind active number three never
lose your sense of humor number four
think of the group that you’re a member
of even if you can’t physically be in
their company and number five think of
the bigger picture and for him too that
came from the book of Psalms last
question
and you mentioned prayer someone’s
asking would you be willing to say no to
this would you be willing to lead us in
a prayer or invocation offering you help
or guide us to get on the right track
maybe our or towards the end of this hmm
God on high please be with us all in
this hour of trial heal those who is
sick give strength to those who give
them comfort be with those heroes and
heroines who manage our medical systems
the doctors the nurses the medical
auxiliaries if strength to all those who
sustain our essential services have
stock our supermarkets who dispense the
medicines we need extend to us your love
remove from us all hate let us be joined
in this time of trial in our sense of
belonging to one another and help us and
this is over the Builder better more
just and safer world Thank You rabbi
Ellen it’s over to you yeah I’m here I’m
here thank you so much for doing that
that was beautiful
though I think it’s important when you
talk about the you know you mentioned
the healthcare workers you mentioned the
people who are stocking shelves who are
out there every day despite the the
recommendations that we social distance
or you know in certain cases we just
stay home and don’t go out so I guess my
concern and worries are with them and
how they maintain calm and peace time
when they are sustaining all of us how
how can we help them how can we think
about doing what is right for those
people and they’re also of course there
are cultures in which social distancing
is just simply not possible it’s you
know society was designed in such a way
that you know that social distancing is
not possible so I guess I’m thinking
about this a lot and I wonder what your
thoughts are about how we can help or
how we can think about that it’s
tremendously helpful for employers and
if not employers then the government to
provide them with or whatever safety
equipment they can have whether it’s
gloves whether it’s face masks whether
face must have been found to work and so
and it’s appalling that governments were
not prepared for this and because South
Korea and China and Hong Kong and
Singapore had had SARS and other
epidemics recently they really were
prepared and you can see the difference
in state but otherwise you know it’s
really really important that we help
those people by keeping our social
distance otherwise we are a health
hazard to them and and and that’s just
incredibly important so that’s the best
we can do to make sure that they are
prioritized with the provision of
whatever safety to proceed especially
the doctors nurses and hospitals you
know in Italy there’s been a huge
percentage of the casualties have been
doctors nurses I mean that’s really
tragic
and in Britain people are working very
hard very fast make sure it doesn’t
happen here what do you think is the
moral imperative for executives or for
leaders in that in that position who you
know or maybe running the warehouses or
overseeing the places where these people
are working well I mean here the whole
wartime ethos is absolutely essential
chief executives have to be down there
on on the ground with the workers you
know they can’t be running companies
from a distance they have to be there
sharing the same risks suffering the
same fears as their employees otherwise
I think you know they’re just morally
unfit for the job there’s certainly
there I think related to the the we and
the I that you have that you have
written about there’s a kind of a rise
over the last decades of individualism
and the kind of a sense that personal
freedom matters more than anything else
I think that we’ve all seen unfortunate
stories of people who are putting their
personal freedom above others what do
you say to them how and how can if
personally if we see people who are
perhaps not making taking all these
restrictions seriously should we get
involved like how do how do we respond
to seeing people out in society who are
not perhaps taking this as seriously as
we believe everyone should it’s a
serious problem and interestingly we
have we have some really good social
science research on this there’s
something called the social goods game I
don’t know if you’ve come across this
let me explain there three players are
given let’s say $30 each and they are
told that they can contribute as much as
they want to a communal chest and the
money will then be doubled and returned
to them three three people are sitting
around the table there
been given $30 they each put $30 in the
communal chest that is doubled to a
hundred and eighty dollars and they all
get $60 left the next round somebody
decides to be clever and he doesn’t put
his thirty dollars in but the other two
do there now they’re $60 double to 120
everyone gets 40 so to get 40 with the
third who didn’t put his money in now
has 70 he gains by putting self-interest
above the common good what happens the
short answer is within a few rounds
everyone stops putting money in the
collective then though common good
disappears number two when asked if they
would be willing to pay money to punish
the non contributor they all agree
they’re willing to make a sacrifice to
punish the guy who puts his
self-interest over the common good so we
have huge research on this though what
happens of course is that if lots of
people panic buy and hoard and stockpile
supermarket goods or drugs or what have
you or they don’t keep their social
distance then we all suffer the whole
thing suffers that’s why everyone is in
lockdown in Britain today because people
weren’t following the rules so the whole
common good disappears because a few
people pursue their own interests the
truth is that in the fullness of time
somebody’s going to take their own back
on those non-compliance individuals
because everyone suffers though do get
involved and less getting involved means
getting less than 6 feet close to them
which case look after your own health
first get involved but stay back yeah
carry on go ahead oh no go ahead go
ahead I was just going to say I think
it’s worth if we will take care of
ourselves and our own behaviors the
for really applying ourselves to others
of course you know that that’s kind of
how we can at least contribute
meaningfully to what’s happening in
society what they say on the plane first
fix your own bars before fixing someone
else’s that’s right I mean the numbers
that were seeing rabbi up so I watering
Li horrifying we’re seeing them coming
out of countries such as Italy they’re
happening in the US right now it’s the
one thing that seems clear is that death
will be full of all going to have a
closer connection to death do know than
later and generally death I mean of
course it comes for us all but generally
death is more of a personal experience
you know we kind of we we deal with it
in our own ways and I don’t think in
this generation we’ve had to deal with
death at this scale how like what words
of advice or wisdom do you have to share
to help us as we all collectively have
to manage it not with the records and
our families but you know the direct
deaths of many millions potentially of
people around the world it’s terribly
scary what’s happening and the scale of
what’s happening but in some respects is
even worse because I mean I had to do a
funeral we could to we go work you know
the normally there would have been
hundreds of people a well-known
well-loved individual everyone would
have wanted to come to see them off and
almost nobody was there because it was
much of a health risk we have something
called sitting Shiva you sit for seven
days and people friends and family come
and comfort you they can’t do that
anymore they can only do that through
social media so even the traditional
comforts that we had in the face of
death are being removed from us the end
result is that we will be left with a
trauma that will probably stay with us
to the end of our days people will never
forget world war two those who lived
through it people will certainly live
never forget the Holocaust those who
lived through it we
we’ll never forget this we will live
despite this we will just say as Moses
said you know choose life you know
nothing can make with that loss we are
going to lose people who are very
precious to us we’re going to lose
people who are very close to us and and
and we are not going to we’re not going
to try and diminish that pain that pain
is real and we have to feel it and then
we have to get up the next day I think
it’s also going to be strange to to kind
of re adapt should we be lucky enough to
be able to readapt at the end of this
like already you kind of you know you go
outside it’s so quiet like how are we
going to do it that’s when this is over
or are we even going to what are we
going to readjust to it’s you know it’s
difficult to know in this time but
christe’s you’re back with questions
well there’s a there’s a provocative
question yeah which I’m introduced to
how you respond to it from Facebook
rabbi it may not be coincidental that
the pandemic happened before Passover
Easter what do you think the meaning of
this plague is in the context of what
happened millennia ago in Egypt is the
whole humanity getting out of the
tyranny of materialism of symbolic Egypt
they go no sorry I I’m not going to have
the whole world eating unleavened bread
after this if you want a real answer if
you can handle this close bit of
biblical exegesis I would say this if
you read the exodus account there are
ten plagues the first two the water
turned
two blood and the country is full of
frogs the Egyptian magicians can
replicate though they say that’s nothing
that’s that’s just magic the third
plague is a plague of lice of
microscopic little organisms now on this
one the Egyptian magicians can’t
replicate it and they say to Pharaoh at
Spa Elohim hook it’s the finger of God
now this is the Bible making fun of
Egyptian civilization Egyptian
civilization said what’s divine is
massive look at the temples look at the
Great Pyramid of Giza for four thousand
years the highest man-made structure on
earth and along comes plank 3 this tiny
microscopic little organism and brings
Egypt to its knees
it’s what TS Eliot meant when he said I
will show you fear in a handful of dust
though if I were to take any biblical
significance it would not be in the
context of the book of Exodus but it
would be in the sense of teaching all of
this humility this tiny little
microscopic virus has brought humanity
to its knees despite all our wealth all
our scientific expertise and all our
technological prowess let us have a
little humility from Iran but what would
you say to someone whose takes almost
the opposite stance and say that
actually to try to understand this
remotely in terms of ancient myths and
stories and know that that whole
worldview has as kind of failed in the
current context the only story we should
be paying attention to is the story of
science the story of knowledge the story
of learning that random horrifying
things can happen on the planet can
spread out of control and that and that
yes we may maybe we can get a sense of
community and connection from religion
but in terms of an explanation of
happen to get it we must pay more
attention to science I do percent
totally and absolutely fair I wrote a
book on this called the great
partnerships they don’t think of
religion and science there’s two
opposite things the greatest rabbi of
the Middle Ages Moses Maimonides was one
of the greatest doctors of the Middle
Ages author of eight medical textbooks I
think it’s a religious imperative to
study medicine to develop new cures to
save life thereby and the idea that
religion is a substitute for science is
outrageous I’m sorry I have no patience
for that view whatsoever okay and
finally another question about your
Confederate devices society I mean it is
divisive it’s us versus them the how do
you dialogue with people on the other
side who are only used to talking with
people who agree with them it’s called
role reversal I think to myself you know
I mean somebody asked me what do you say
to a guy who’s just coming out of the
supermarket with I don’t know hundred
rolls of toilet paper you know and
leaving this old lady behind with
nothing in her basket I said what I
would say to him is just think what she
is thinking right now put yourself in
her position that’s the simplest way of
learning how to be moral I know now what
I saw in the United States just defy
belief you had what one month ago
a poll that said that 45% of Americans
no longer talked politics through a
close friend or a member of the family
because they are worried that that would
break up the relationship and I’m
thinking to myself oh we suddenly become
soldiers though such super heroes that
we can dispense with the need for
empathy - the need to understand how the
world looks like from somebody who’s
looking at it from another perspective
from us but for heaven’s sake it’s
ridiculous civilization depends and
morality depends on our being able to
see through other people’s eyes
and that and you know I’m gonna quote
the Bible at you Chris
do not arm a stranger because you know
what it feels like to be a stranger
you will want strangers in the land of
Egypt you know what it feels like to be
on the other side we need that in
politics right now Thank You rabbi and a
percent agree on that point for sure
I’ll be back home at the end okay the
rabbi you turn to religious texts
obviously for comfort and sucker what
advice do you have for those who don’t
have spiritual beliefs I don’t have
spiritual beliefs poetry and music those
are the finest expressions of the human
spirit you know just just read
Shakespeare’s sonnets read Wordsworth
read gates read whoever you know and
look musing is such a personal taste and
when I try and get all away from M&M
does lead raw dared and so on you know
but I never know what what speaks to
people but their words the language of
the mind and music is language of the
soul and don’t tell me that there are
too many human beings who can’t be moved
by music there are some a very few so
basically that’s it poetry and music I’m
just I’m not gonna lie rabbi I have
great delight in seeing you rocking out
- mmm that gives me great pleasure thank
you for that yeah lose yourself let’s
think that once a day you know though
you mentioned Shiva earlier and I know
also that you have or you have had up
until now a family Sabbath meal every
Friday what part of what role can ritual
play at this moment and how how are you
redefining ritual in a virtual world
well number one we get together with the
family on a
program that it was named I forget is it
guestroom or something something like
that some subsidiary of zoom I don’t
know they’re all on the screen together
and we have family times when we just
come together as a family so everyone’s
there and of course our grandchildren
love this stuff they grow up with this
stuff they add all sorts of special
effects while we’re talking and that’s
number one number two obviously
physically we can’t be with them on what
we can’t be with them . but especially
on friday night which is family time so
we have one of those electronic picture
frames you know where you can store lots
of pictures they change every few
seconds so as we are bringing in the
sabbath I’m and I stand by that picture
frame I would just stand there looking
at our grandchildren you know and it’s
very very moving I have to tell you
though you know
we managed where do you see hope or
light in this moment hello because I was
chief rabbi for a long time I got to
know Holocaust survivors I wanted to
know how did they carry on living you
know and some of them didn’t you know
some of them committed suicide even even
even Premal lovely committed suicide in
his 80 and I just thought after they
survived and then I thought of is Israel
Christo who died a couple of years of
about three years ago one month short of
his hundred and 14th birthday the
world’s oldest living man a Holocaust
survivor who had his Bar Mitzvah on his
hundred and 13th birthday lived in
lived in - he made chocolate he liked
making people have made the cured
chocolate EDA Seger you know wrote the
book the choice survivor of Auschwitz
survivor of the death march which was
worse than Auschwitz who writes her
first book at the age of 90 called the
choice and it’s an international
bestseller and she emerges as a female
Viktor Frankl who used her pain at
Auschwitz to speak to and heal the pain
of others I look at the photograph last
summer of a lady in Israel called
Shoshana Ovitz
another outreach survivor celebrating
her hundred and fourth birthday and she
invited her family our children
grandchildren great-grandchildren to
come together to celebrate with her they
took a photograph of them against the
western wall there were almost 400 I
thought what courage does it take to
bring 400 lives into a world that you
know contains out and I’ve just studied
these I haven’t read philosophical
theories I just studied these these
people lived from day to day their firm
life they celebrate life they look
forward they wrestle with their memories
and they try not to late load them on
others and they are joyous people but a
very hard one joy a lot of jagged edges
and I always think if they could get
through what they had to go through so
can I beautiful and I think that will
speak to to the many parents I’m sure
who were watching and listening and
worrying about the fact that children
are home or
children are not having an education
right now any other thoughts that you
have about how to how to involve and
include children in this moment without
filling them with the fear that I think
so many of us are feeling well I’ve seen
some very innovative approaches in
education classroom virtual classrooms
and the teachers seem to be working
through the idea that you have to keep
kids physically active quite a lot cuz
it’s quite difficult to sit still in
your own house in your own front room
and it gets quite boring so they seem to
have worked out more interactive and
more active lessons learning through
game playing in some cases and and that
seems to work I would also think you
know around Easter around Passover to
get children to you know do a little
Passover or the word you know a little
poem a little play a little something on
you know filmed on your smartphone and
send it to their grandparents
make them feel that they’re the teachers
are just the pupils and how much do you
advise honesty with children as it
sounds but how much do we involve
children in in what is happening here
there’s so much uncertainty around and
children don’t necessarily thrive on
uncertainty but at the same time you
don’t necessarily want to disguise the
fact that this is you know do put odd
for everybody how do you how do you
think about talking to children about
what’s happening it’s found out anyway
they’re extremely well informed these
days there are such times you have to be
very open and honest you have to answer
questions you have to never ever induce
fear or uncertainty you have to say it’s
gonna be okay
we’re all in this together okay we’re
going to come through this
you’ve got you’ve got to explain to them
why they have to keep certain distances
that they can’t go to certain places or
children respond to discipline when it
is accompanied with explanation but I’ve
never known that keeping things from
from children is terribly helpful and
and they’re getting so much more mature
so much earlier these days and so much
better informed that it’s better for
them to confront their fears for you to
confront their fears and to reassure
them and that reassurance must be
rock-solid not the slightest room for
doubt there what happens if you don’t
feel rock-solid have to for their sake
something about that and once you’ve
done it you will feel rock-solid it’s
the way you combat fear you know when
you have to be fearless the sake of your
children you become fearless it’s a very
strengthening and reinforcing phenomena
and you know at such moments families
huddle together in very beautiful ways
and you know I remember that but it
wasn’t the same in any way but when our
kids were young we were in Israel for
the whole of the first Gulf War
thirty-nine Scud missiles any one of
which could have contained
chemical or bacterial weapons we had
these very big gas masks it was very
scary for all of them but you know he
were very together as a family then just
as you know the it looks like the online
audience has been super appreciative and
somewhat you know they’ve learned so
much from you and there’s an interesting
question here this week get towards the
end of this hour together a broken
Beauty play in helping us manage our
lives at this time
in connecting with Beauty help us or is
that a luxury when people are suffering
and dying very I’m thinking I’m not a
great beauty guy you know sort of fairly
ugly sort of guy but I’m trying to
wrestle with him Swan Chris I’m thinking
you know of Rhino Maria Rilke z– line
in the first of the Duino elegies beauty
is the beginning of terror that we are
just able to bear so so Rilke seem to
say that that that beauty is this side
of fear
Maimonides says that beauty is a
wonderful antidote to anxiety and
depression
I just love bleeding for the sake of
loving beauty but some I also believe
and I don’t know whether this resonates
with anyone but I don’t know if you’ve
listened for instance the late quartets
of Beethoven and in particular the late
music of Schubert the last three
quartets and me and the quintet and to
me Schubert is taking pain and turning
it into beauty and therefore whenever
I’d felt pain or fear I tend to listen
to those late Schubert quartets or the
quintet and you takes you on this
journey from from pain to beauty and and
you feel transformed by the experience
so I’m not sure if musical beauty was
what your question I was asking about
but Beauty is much to be recommended at
such a time I mean is it is it fair to
say that beauty is connected quite
closely to two other words yearning
which is in the case of music I think
you outline there very eloquently that
that feeling of this is beautiful but
it’s it’s painful it’s like is
expressing a pain in me you know that
that is there’s a sort of almost a
contradiction there that is powerful but
then another word as well of gratitude
thanks for me
when you just take a moment I don’t know
to get outside if you can and be a piece
of nature or see something that moment
is saying oh my goodness that’s
beautiful oh my goodness
now that I think about it I do have
other things to be grateful for that
there’s some there’s some sort of mental
health nourishment in that can I tell
you a story do we have a moment do we
have time tell us tell us your story hmm
this our honeymoon 50 years ago and we
were a little Italian town called
paestum has some Roman ruins but it also
has a beach lovely beach and this
glorious day and I long to go into the
water except for the fact that I can’t
swim my and I was looking at the people
and there were about 200 yards out but
they were only up to their knees so I
said to Elaine I’m gonna paddle out up
to my knees and that’ll be that so I
paddled out up to my knees then I turned
around and started coming back and
suddenly I found myself out of my depth
there was no one near and as I went
under for the fifth time I remember
thinking to thoughts number one what a
way to start a honeymoon and number two
um what’s the Italian for help
damn how are others somebody must have
seen me because somebody rescued me to
this day I know who deposited me pretty
much unconscious at Elaine’s feet and
that was a honey but ever since then I
have said with special concentration the
first prayer that you say in the morning
before they do anything else
modere Anila for Nava thank you God for
giving me back my life that’s what I
feel every day the point I’m making
though is the first word we say I’m
waking up in the morning is more death
thank in Judaism we thanked before we
think and I commend this to everyone
right now think of the wonderful things
to say thank you for
and they will lift your spirit and I’ll
ask one last question from a line you
know you spoke of a just world could you
elaborate on that what what does that
just world look like and what steps
maybe just one key step do get there
well you know I my main thoughts are
about individual Nations I think we
really have reached the outer limits of
inequality I don’t know did you see that
that South Korean film that won the
Oscar what was it called parasite I
don’t know if you squawk the American
film that had most nominations called
the Joker
lately different films but both of them
cries of anger from the people who are
left out towards the people who are at
the top of society and they are violent
films both of them really violent films
and I can’t imagine either of them being
made in the past in quite that way there
could have been a lot of anger in the
30s and 40s but it would have been
working class solidarity type anger not
individual revenge type anger so I think
we need economic justice we cannot have
X million of people in the States and
then elsewhere outside adequate health
service we can’t have gross inequalities
touch that whether whether you’re Robert
Putnam on the sort of middling left or
Charles Mauri on the far right they are
saying the American dream no longer
plays anymore the social mobility has
declined those things
I mean Ray Dalio you remember Ray Dalio
was we were part of the same TED
Conference together
Ray Dalio last year called income
inequality in the States a national
emergency and an existential threat to
the future of America though it is that
individual justice
that I can make sense of the more global
justice is a really difficult one
because how do you reform failed and
failing States how do you deal with
corrupt rulers and and and essentially
corrupt economies so you know for these
I wish I had an answer I’d I really
don’t
I’ve discussed them with people who
should have an answer and they can you
know with people from the World Bank and
what have you and they find it very
difficult to give me an answer so I’ll
settle for local national justice and
for the rest needs a bigger brain than I
have means you hold any hope about the
fact that the reset we’re all facing
right now is so dramatic that it will
force this kind of thinking the kind of
radical rethinking that we need to do
about you know and we have the time to
do it and the the almost sort of the the
absolute essential need to do it to
rethink these things that the people
will do it in in a million conversations
around the world that we basically we
reassess what really matters and the
words you’ve just used are a powerful
motive for up for us to do that can can
this actually happen I think Chris you
you yourself have a very very important
platform to play as I don’t think this
is coming together will necessarily
happen through conventional political
avenues but it can come together through
platforms like Ted it can come together
through you know were World Health
Organization’s and scientific
cooperation and so on the kind that that
we are still waiting for on on climate
change I think we have reached the point
at which though our politics are all
national our problems are almost all
global and there is a big mismatch and
hence I think Ted has a very very
important role to play in this
well we usually appreciate you coming
and showing these words that was
something thank you thank you great to
be with you I always said remember Chris
you get the best speakers cuz you’re the
best listeners watching this thank you
for being great listeners and for I mean
with this son this journey of you know
wanders and stresses and learnings
through this strange era of the virus
will I loved what you said rabbi there
were all in this together that’s very
much our spirit right now it’s how we
feel towards our global community we’re
all in this together let’s continue to
talk together learn from each other do
this together we have another one of
these tomorrow at noon us Eastern Time
same time where it’s actually it’s it’s
a it’s a it’s a double act tomorrow it
we’re starting with it with 15 minutes
from a statistician a journalist
statistician data journalist on the
Financial Times who’s great of these
graphs that really give an extraordinary
understanding of how different countries
are doing and I’m excited for him to
share give those graphs with you into it
to explain them and and then talk about
the other half the other half will be a
conversation between Ted science curator
David Biello
and Sonya Shah who is also a science
journalist and a communicator whose
latest book was called pandemic
published in 2017 but it’s something
that she has been studying for many
years and so they are going to talk
about some of the ways that we might
come through this as well as some of the
ways that we have been responding so far
should be a great conversation and more
to come during the rest of the week so
Canada the slot come and join us again
share this with others if you found it
helpful you will be able to there a link
with this whole hour archived and
someone will tell me the web address
that where that’s at you can set you’ll
be able to find it just by coming to Ted
calm
following the lines to Ted connects well
we’ll have it posted or on our Facebook
page facebook.com slash Ted and and that
talks from last week are there as well
thank you so much for your company and
people again
Bracey