Strange answers to the psychopath test Jon Ronson

[Music]

[Applause]

if daily starts I was at a friend’s

house and she had on her shelf a copy of

the DSM manual which is the manual of

mental disorders at lists every known

mental disorder and he used to be back

in the fifties a very slim pamphlet

America bigger and bigger and bigger and

now it’s 886 pages long and it lists

currently 374 mental disorders so I was

leafing through it wondering if I had

any mental disorders and it turns out

I’ve got 12

I’ve got generalized anxiety disorder

which is a given

I’ve got Knightmare disorder which is

categorized if you have recurrent dreams

of being pursued or declared to failure

and all my dreams involve people chasing

me down the street going you’re a

failure

I’ve got parent-child relation or

problems which I blame my parents for

I’m kidding I’m not kidding I’m kidding

and I’ve got malingering and I think

it’s actually quite rare to have both

malingering and generalized anxiety

disorder because malingering tends to

make me feel very anxious anyway I was

looking through this book wondering if I

was much crazier than I thought I was or

maybe it’s not a good idea to diagnose

yourself with a mental disorder if

you’re lots of chains professional or

maybe the psychiatry profession has a

kind of strange desire to label what’s

essentially normal human behavior as a

mental disorder I didn’t know which of

these things was true but I thought it

was kind of interesting and I thought

maybe I should meet a critic of

Psychiatry to get their view which is

how I ended up having lunch with the

Scientologists it was a man called Brian

who runs a crack team of Scientologists

who were determined to destroy

psychiatry wherever it lies there called

the CCHR and I said to him can I can you

prove to me and psychiatry is a

pseudoscience that can’t be trusted and

he said yes we can prove it to you

and I said how and he said we can

introduce you to Tony and I said who’s

Tony and he said Tony’s in Broadmoor

Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital he used

to be known as the Broadmoor asylum for

the criminally insane that’s where they

said that serial killers and the people

who can’t help themselves and I said too

bad well what did Tony do but he said

hardly anything he beat someone up or

something and he decided to fake madness

to get out of a prison sentence but he

faked it to well and now he’s stuck in

Broadmoor and nobody will believe he’s

sane

do you want us to try and get you into

Broadmoor to meet Tony so I said yes

please so I got the train to Broadmoor I

began to yawn uncontrollably around

Kempton Park which apparently is what

dogs also do when anxious they yawn

uncontrollably and we got to learn more

I’ve been taken through gate after gate

after gate after gate into the Wellness

Center which is where you get to meet

the patients it looks like a giant

Hampton Inn it’s all Beach and pine and

calming colors and the only bold colors

are the Reds of the panic buttons

had the patient started rift again

and they were quite overweight wearing

sweatpants and quite dopes are looking

and Brian the Scientologists whispered

to me that medicated which to the

Scientologists was not the worst evil in

the world but I’m thinking it’s from be

a good idea and then Brian said here’s

Tony and a man was walking in and he

wasn’t overweight he was a very good

physical shape and he wasn’t wearing

sweatpants he was wearing a pinstripe

suit and he had his arm outstretched

like someone out of The Apprentice he

looked like a man who wanted to wear an

outfit that would convince me that he

was very sane and he sat down and I said

so is it true that you faked your way in

here and he said yep yep absolutely I

beat someone up when I was 17 and I was

in prison awaiting trial and my cellmate

said to me you know you have to do faked

madness tell em you’re mad you’ll get

sent to some cushy hospital nurses have

been your pizzas you love you on

PlayStation I said well how did you do

it said well ask to see the prison

psychiatrist and I just seen a film

called crash in which people get sexual

pleasure from crashing cars into walls

so I said to the psychiatrist I get

sexual pleasure from crushing cars into

walls and I said what else he said oh

yeah I told the psychiatrist that I

wanted to watch women as they died

because it would make me feel more

normal and I said where’d you get out

from he’s all from a biography of Ted

Bundy that they had to the prison

library anyway faked madness - well he

said and they didn’t send him some cushy

hospital they sent him to Broadmoor and

the minute he got there said it’s what

one look at the place asked to see the

psychiatrist said there’s been a

terrible misunderstanding I’m not

mentally ill I said how long have you

been here for he said well if I just

done my time in prison for the original

crime I’d have got five years

I’ve been in Broadmoor for 12 years Tony

said that it’s a lot harder to convince

people you’re sane than it is to

convince if you’re crazy

yes I thought the best way to stay

normal would be to talk to people

normally about normal things like

football or what’s on TV I subscribed to

New Scientist and recently they had an

article about the u.s. army was trailing

bumblebees to the fat explosives so I

said to a nurse did you know that the US

Army’s training bumblebees to sniff out

explosives whenever at my medical notes

I saw they’d written believes bees can

sniff out explosives

he said you know they’re always looking

out for non-verbal clues to my mental

state but how do you sit in a sane way

how do you cross your legs in the same

way it’s just impossible

no one totally said that to me I thought

to myself am I sitting like a journalist

crossing my legs like a journalist he

said you know I’ve got the Stockwell

strangler on one side of me and I’ve got

the tiptoe through the tulips rapist on

the other side of me so I tend to stay

in my room a lot because I find quite

frightening and they take Dad is a sign

of madness they say it proves that I’m

aloof and grandiose so only in Broadmoor

would not wanting to hang out with

serial killers be a side of madness

anyway he seemed completely normal to me

but what did I know but I’ve got home I

emailed his punished and honestly made

and I said what’s the story and he said

yep we accept that toady faked madness

to get out of a prison sentence because

his hallucinations that had seemed quite

cliched to begin with just vanished the

minute he got to Broadmoor however we

have assessed him and we’ve determined

that what he is is a psychopath and in

fact faking madness is exactly the kind

of cunning and manipulative act of a

psychopath so on the checklist having

manipulative so faking your brain going

wrong is evidence that your brain has

gone wrong and I spoke to other experts

and they said the pinstripe suits

classic psychopath speak of items 1 & 2

on the checklist glibness superficial

charm and grandiose sense of self-worth

I said what I said the Wadden hang out

with the the other patients classic

psychopath it speaks to grandiosity and

also lack of empathy so all the things

that has seemed most normal about Tony

was evidence according to his clinician

that he was mad in this new way he was a

psychopath and his clinician said to me

if you want to know more about

Psychopaths he can go on a Psychopaths

spotting course run by Robert hare who

invented the psychopathy checklist so I

did I went on a Psychopaths possum

course and I am now as

if I’d and I have to say extremely adept

it’s like a bad spotter so here’s the

statistics one in a hundred regular

people is a psychopath so there’s 1500

people in this room 15 of you are

psychopaths

[Music]

although that figure rises to four

percent of CEOs and business leaders

over I think there’s a very good chance

is about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this

room it could be carnage by the end of

the night hair said the reason why is

because capitalism at its most ruthless

rewards psychopathic behavior the lack

of empathy the glibness

cunning manipulative in fact capitalism

perhaps at its most remorseless is a

physical manifestation of psychopathy

it’s like a form of psychopathy that’s

come down to

affect us all the hair said to me you

know what forget about some guy at

Broadmoor who may or may not have faked

madness who cares that’s not a big story

the big story he’s had his corporate

psychopathy you want to go and interview

yourself some corporate Psychopaths so I

gave it a try wrote to the Enron people

I said could I covered it for you in

prison to find out if your Psychopaths

they didn’t reply so I changed tack I

emailed chainsaw al Dunlap the asset

stripper from the 1990s he would come

into failing businesses and close down

30% of the workforce just turn American

towns into ghost towns and I emailed him

and I said I believe he may have a very

special brain anomaly that makes you

special interested in the predatory

spirit and fearless can I come and

interview you about your special brain

anomaly and he said come on over so I

went to our deluxe Grand Florida mansion

that was filled with sculptures of

predatory animals there were lions and

tigers he was taking me through the

garden there were foul cones and ethos

in the sent me over they’ve got sharks

and what you’ve sent us in at less

effeminate way you’ve got more sharks

and you’ve got Tigers was like Narnia

and then we went into his kitchen now

our double up would be bought in to save

failing companies he closed down 30

percent of the workforce and he quite

often fire people with a joke that for

instance one famous story about him

suddenly came up to him and said I’ve

just bought myself a new car and he said

well you may have a new car but I tell

you what you don’t have a job so in his

kitchen he was standing there with his

wife Judy and his bodyguard sword and I

said you know how I said in my email

that you might have a special brain

anomaly that makes you special and he

said yes an amazing theory it’s like

Star Trek you’re going where no man has

gone before and I said well some

psychologists might say that this makes

you

[Music]

daddy said what and I said it’s like the

pastor and I said I’ve got a list of

psychopathic traits in my pocket can I

go through them with you

and he looked intrigued and despite

himself but he said okay go on and I

said okay grandiose sense of self-worth

which I have to say would have been hard

for him to deny because he was standing

underneath a giant or your painting of

himself

he said well you’ve got to believe in

you and I said manipulative he said

that’s leadership

and I said shallow effect an inability

to experience a range of emotions he

said who wants to be weighed down by

some nonsense emotions so he was going

down the psychopath checklist basically

turning it into who moved my cheese

[Music]

but I did notice something happening to

me that I was without them laughs

whenever he said anything to me that was

cut and normal like he said no to

juvenile delinquency he said he got

accepted into West Point and they don’t

let delinquents in West Point is have no

too many short marital relationships

he’s only ever been married twice

admittedly his first wife cited in her

divorce papers but he once threatened

her with a knife and said he always

wanted what human flesh tasted like but

people say stupid things to each other

in bad marriages in the heat of an

argument of his second marriage has

lasted 41 years so whenever he said

anything to me that just seemed kind of

non psychopathic I thought to myself

well I’m not going to put dad in the

book and then I realized that becoming a

psychopath spotter had kind of turned me

a little bit psychopathic so I was

desperate to shove him in a box marked

psychopath I was desperate to define him

by his maddest edges and I realized oh

my god this is what I’ve been doing for

20 years it’s what all journalists do we

travel across the world with our

notepads in our hands and we wait for

the gems and the gems are always the

outermost aspects of our interviewees

personality we stitch them together like

medieval monks and we leave the normal

stuff on the floor I know this is a

country that overdiagnosis certain

mental disorders hugely childhood

bipolar children as young as four are

being labeled bipolar because they have

temper tantrums which scores them high

on their bipolar checklist when I got

back to London

Tony phoned me

he said why don’t you been returning my

calls I said well they say that you’re a

psychopath and he said not a psychopath

said you know what one of the items on

the checklist is lack of remorse but

another item on the checklist is cunning

manipulative so when you say you feel

remorse for your crime they say typical

of the psychopath to cunningly say he

feels remorse but he doesn’t

it’s like witchcraft they turn

everything upside down he said I’ve got

a tribunal coming up when you come to it

so I said okay so I wouldn’t which

tribunal and after 14 years in Broadmoor

Denison go they decided that he

shouldn’t be held indefinitely because

he scores high on a checklist that might

mean that he would as a greater than

average chance of recidivism so they let

him go and outside in the corridor he

said to me you know what John everyone’s

a bit psychopathic he said you are I am

well obviously I am I said what are you

gonna do now he said I’m gonna go to

Belgium because there’s a woman there

that I fancy that she’s married so I

would have to get a splitter from her

husband

anyway that was two years ago and that’s

where my book ended and for the last 20

months everything was fine

nothing bad happens he was living with a

girl outside London he was according to

Brian the Scientologist making up for

lost time which I know sounds ominous

but isn’t necessarily ominous

unfortunately after 20 months he did go

back to jail for a month he got into

Africa in a bar he called it and took

him to jail for a month which I know is

bad but at least a month implies that

it’s whatever the frak are well was

wasn’t too bad

and then he phoned me and you know I

think it’s right

that Thole is out because you shouldn’t

define people by their maddest edges and

what Tony is is a he’s a semi psychopath

he’s a gray area in a world that doesn’t

like grey areas but the grey areas are

where you find the complexity of

so you found the humanity and that’s

where you found the truth

and totally said to me John

could I buy you a drink at a bar to sort

of thank you for everything you’ve done

for me

and I didn’t go what would you have done

thank you

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[音乐]

[掌声]

如果每天开始我在一个朋友

家,她的书架上放着一

本 DSM 手册,这是一本

精神障碍手册,列出了所有已知的

精神障碍,他曾经

回到五十年代 非常薄的

美国小册子越来越大,

现在有 886 页长,它列出了

目前 374 种精神障碍,所以我

翻阅它想知道我是否有

任何精神障碍,结果发现

我有 12 种

我有广泛性焦虑

我得了 Knightmare 障碍,

如果你经常

梦见被追赶或被宣布失败

,我所有的梦想都涉及人们

在街上追我,你是个

失败者,

我有亲子

我责怪我父母的关系或问题

我在开玩笑

无论如何让我感到非常焦虑 我正在

看这本书,想知道

我是否比我想象的要

疯狂得多 有

一种奇怪的愿望,将

本质上正常的人类行为标记为

精神障碍

就是我最终与山达基共进午餐的原因

,是一个名叫布赖恩的人

,他经营着一支由山达基教徒组成的精锐团队,

他们决心摧毁

精神病学,无论它在那里,

称为 CCHR,我对他说,我能不能你

向我证明 精神病学是一门

不可信的伪科学,

他说是的,我们可以向你证明

,我说怎么做,他说我们可以

把你介绍给托尼,我说

托尼是谁,他说托尼在兄弟 oadmoor 布罗德穆尔

是布罗德穆尔医院,他

曾经被称为布罗德穆尔

精神病院,他们在那里

说连环杀手和

那些无法自救的人,我说

托尼做了什么太糟糕了,但他

几乎什么都没说 殴打某人或

某事,他决定假装疯狂

以摆脱监禁,但他

假装得很好,现在他被困在

布罗德莫尔,没有人会相信他

神志清醒

,您是否希望我们尝试让您进入

布罗德莫尔与托尼会面 所以我说是的,

请所以我坐火车去布罗德莫尔我

开始在肯普顿公园周围不受控制地打哈欠

,这显然是

狗在焦虑时也会做的事情,它们

无法控制地打哈欠,我们必须了解更多信息

进入健康

中心的大门,在那里您

可以见到病人 它看起来像一个巨大的

汉普顿酒店 它都是海滩和松树和

平静的颜色,唯一大胆的颜色

是恐慌的红色 纽扣

让病人再次裂开

,他们穿着

运动裤,体重超重,看起来很毒品

,山达基教派的布赖恩低声

对我说,对山达基教派来说,这

不是世界上最严重的邪恶,

但我认为这是

一种好的 想法然后布赖恩说这是

托尼,一个男人走进来,他

并没有超重,他的体形非常好

,他没有穿

运动裤,他穿着细条纹

西装,他的手臂

像外面的人一样伸出来 学徒,他

看起来像一个想

穿一件能让我相信他很清醒的衣服的人

,他坐下来,我

说是的,你假装在

这里,他说是的,是的,绝对是

我打人的时候 我 17 岁,我

在监狱里等待审判,我的狱友

对我说,你知道你必须做

假装的疯狂,告诉他们你疯了,你会被

送到一些轻松的医院护士

是你在 PlayS 上爱你的

披萨 我说好 你是怎么做到的

说好 要求见监狱的

精神病医生 我刚看了一部

叫做 撞车 的电影,人们

从汽车撞到墙上获得性快感

所以我对精神病医生说我

从汽车撞到墙上获得性快感

墙壁,我说他还说了什么哦,

是的,我告诉精神科医生我

想看着女人死去,

因为这会让我感觉更

正常,我说你从哪里得到的

,他都是从泰德邦迪的传记中

得到的 无论如何,他们不得不去监狱

图书馆假装疯狂——好吧,他

说他们没有给他送去一些舒适的

医院,他们把他送到了布罗德莫尔,

他一到那里就说这是

一个看这个地方要求看

精神病医生说的 一个

可怕的误会

我没有精神病

说 说服人们你是理智的比说服你疯了要困难

得多是的,

我认为保持正常的最好方法是

正常地与人们

谈论正常的事情,比如

足球或电视上的什么我订阅了

新 科学家,最近他们有

一篇关于我们的文章 军队正在跟踪

大黄蜂到肥胖的炸药,所以我

对护士说,你知道吗,

美国陆军训练大

黄蜂在我的医疗记录中嗅出炸药,

我看到他们写的相信蜜蜂可以

嗅出炸药,

他说你知道他们 我总是在

寻找关于我的精神状态的非语言线索

但是你如何以一种理智的方式坐着

你如何以同样的方式交叉你的双腿

这是不可能的

一个记者

像记者一样盘着我的腿他

说你知道我的一侧有斯托克韦尔

扼杀者,我的另一侧有

郁金香强奸犯的脚尖

所以我倾向于

呆在我的房间里 很多,因为我觉得很

可怕,他们认为爸爸是疯狂的标志

,他们说这证明我

冷漠和浮夸,所以只有在

布罗德莫尔不想和

连环杀手一起出去玩是疯狂的一面,

无论如何,他似乎完全正常 我

但是什么 我知道吗,但我已经到家了,我

给他发了电子邮件

,说实话,我说这是怎么回事,他说

是的,我们接受了这个愚蠢的假装疯子

来摆脱监禁,因为

他的幻觉一开始似乎很

陈词滥调 他刚到布罗德莫尔的那一刻就消失

了,但是我们

已经对他进行了评估,我们已经

确定他是一个精神病患者,

事实上,假装疯狂正是精神病患者的

那种狡猾和操纵性的行为,

所以清单上有

操纵性所以假装 你的大脑出了

问题是你的大脑出

了问题的证据,我与其他专家交谈

,他们说细条纹西装适合

经典精神病患者谈论清单上的项目 1 和 2 流利

肤浅的

魅力和夸大的自我价值感

我说了我说的 Wadden

和其他病人一起出去玩 经典

精神病患者 它说明了自大

和缺乏同理心,所以所有

关于托尼似乎最正常的事情

都是显而易见的 e 根据他的临床医生的

说法,他以这种新方式发疯了,他是一个

精神病患者,他的临床医生对我说,

如果你想了解更多关于

精神病患者的信息,他可以参加

由发明精神病检查表的 Robert hare 开设的精神病患者发现课程,

所以我

我是否参加过精神病患者负鼠

课程,我现在

好像我会而且我不得不说它非常熟练

,就像一个糟糕的观察者所以这里的

统计数据有一百分之一的

普通人是精神病患者所以

这个房间里有 1500 人 15 你们中的人是

精神病患者

[音乐]

尽管这个数字上升到

CEO 和商业领袖的 4% 以上,

我认为这个房间里很有可能

有 30 或 40 名精神病患者

,到晚上可能会发生大屠杀

头发说原因 为什么是

因为资本主义在最无情的时候

奖励精神病态的行为

缺乏同理心油嘴滑舌

狡猾的操纵事实上资本主义

也许在最无情的时候是

精神病态的物理表现

就像一种精神变态,它

影响我们所有的头发对我说你

知道什么忘记了

布罗德莫尔的某个人可能会或可能不会假装

疯狂谁在乎这不是什么

大故事他有他的公司的大故事

精神病你想去采访

一些公司的精神病患者所以我

试一试写信给安然的人

我说我可以在监狱里为你报道一下,

看看你的精神病患者

是否没有回复所以我改变了策略我

给电锯发了电子邮件 al Dunlap 是

1990 年代的资产剥离者,他将

进入倒闭的企业并关闭

30% 的劳动力,只是把美国

城镇变成鬼城,我给他发了电子邮件

,我说我相信他可能有一个非常

特殊的大脑异常,让你变得

特别 对掠夺性

精神和无畏感兴趣 我可以来

采访你关于你的特殊大脑

异常,他说过来,所以我

去了我们的豪华大佛罗里达豪宅

,里面装满了

p 的雕塑 有罪的动物有狮子和

老虎他带我穿过

花园有肮脏的锥体和精神

在派我过去他们有鲨鱼

和你以不那么女性化的方式发送给我们的东西

你有更多的鲨鱼

和你 老虎队就像纳尼亚

,然后我们走进他的厨房,现在

我们的双倍资金将被买来拯救

失败的公司他关闭了 30

% 的员工,他

经常用一个笑话解雇人,

例如一个著名的故事 他

突然走到他跟前说我

刚给自己买了一辆新车他说

好吧你可能有一辆新车但我告诉

你你没有工作所以在他的

厨房里他和他的妻子站在那里

朱迪和他的保镖剑,

我说你知道我在电子邮件中

说过你可能有一个特殊的大脑

异常,这让你很特别,他

说是的,一个惊人的理论,就像

星际迷航你要去以前没有人

去过的地方, 我说得很好,一些

心理学家可能会说 at this makes

you

[Music]

爸爸说了什么,我说这就像

牧师,我说

我口袋里有一份精神病特征清单,我

可以和你

一起看看吗,他看起来很感兴趣,尽管

他自己,但他说好吧 继续,我

说好的夸大的自我价值感

,我不得不说

他很难否认,因为他站在

一个巨人的下面,或者你自己的画

他说你必须相信

你和我 说操纵他说

那是领导

,我说肤浅的影响

无法体验一系列情绪他

说谁想被

一些无意义的情绪压垮所以他

在精神病患者清单上基本上

把它变成了谁动了我的奶酪

[音乐]

但我确实注意到发生在我身上的事情,

每当他对我说任何刻板和正常的事情时,我都笑了,

就像他对青少年犯罪说不,

他说他被

西点军校录取了,他们

不让熟食店 西点军校的人没有

太多短暂的婚姻关系

他只结过两次婚

诚然他的第一任妻子在她的

离婚文件中提到但他曾经

用刀威胁她并说他一直

想要人肉的味道但

人们说愚蠢的话

他第二次婚姻的激烈争论中,在糟糕的婚姻中彼此相处已经

持续了 41 年,所以每当他

对我说任何看似非精神病的事情时,我都

心想我不会把爸爸放在

书里 然后我意识到成为一个

精神病观察者

让我有点变态所以我

不顾一切地把他推到一个标有精神病患者的盒子里

我不顾一切地

用他最疯狂的边缘来定义他我意识到

我的上帝这就是我 ‘已经做了

20 年 这是所有记者都在做的事情

我们手里拿着记事本在世界各地旅行,我们等待

着宝石,而宝石总是

我们采访的最外在方面

我们像中世纪的僧侣一样将他们缝合在一起,

然后我们把正常的

东西放在地板上

当我回到伦敦时,在他们的躁郁症清单上

托尼给我打了电话

他说你为什么不回我的

电话我说好他们说你是

精神病患者他说不是精神病患者

说你知道其中一项

清单上没有悔意,但

清单上的另一个项目是狡猾的

操纵,所以当你说你

对你的罪行感到悔恨时,他们会说典型

的精神病患者狡猾地说他

感到悔恨,但他

并不像巫术一样他们把

一切都颠倒了 他说

当你来的时候我有一个法庭要来,

所以我说好吧,所以我不会选择哪个

法庭,在布罗德莫尔丹尼森工作了 14 年后,

他们决定 他

不应该被无限期关押,因为

他在一份清单上得分很高,这可能

意味着他再次

犯罪的机会高于平均水平,所以他们让

他离开,在走廊外面他

对我说你知道约翰每个人都

有点 精神变态 他说你很

明显 我很好 我说你

现在要做什么 他说我要去

比利时 因为那里有一个女人

我觉得她结婚了 所以

我得从她丈夫那里得到一个分离器

无论如何,那是两年前的事了,这

就是我的书结束的地方,在过去的 20

个月里,一切都很好,

没有发生任何不好的事情,他和

伦敦郊外的一个女孩住在一起,据山

达基教派布莱恩说,他是为了弥补

失去的时间,我知道这听起来不祥,

不幸的是,在 20 个月后,他确实

回到了监狱里呆了一个月,他

在一家他称之为酒吧的酒吧里进入了非洲,并把

他带进了监狱一个月,我知道这很

糟糕,但至少一个月意味着

这是 不管那个弗拉克的情况

还不错

,然后他打电话给我,你知道我

认为 Thole 出局是正确的,因为你不应该

用他们最疯狂的边缘来定义人,

而托尼是一个半精神病患者,

他是一个 在一个不喜欢灰色地带的世界中的

灰色地带,但灰色地带

是你发现复杂性的地方,

所以你找到了人性,这

就是你找到真相的地方,

并完全对我说,

约翰我可以在酒吧给你买杯饮料吗

谢谢你为我所做的一切

,我没有去你会做什么

谢谢

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