A radical plan to end plastic waste Andrew Forrest
Chris Anderson: So, you’ve been
obsessed with this problem
for the last few years.
What is the problem, in your own words?
Andrew Forrest: Plastic.
Simple as that.
Our inability to use it for the tremendous
energetic commodity that it is,
and just throw it away.
CA: And so we see waste everywhere.
At its extreme, it looks a bit like this.
I mean, where was this picture taken?
AF: That’s in the Philippines,
and you know, there’s a lot of rivers,
ladies and gentlemen,
which look exactly like that.
And that’s the Philippines.
So it’s all over Southeast Asia.
CA: So plastic is thrown into the rivers,
and from there, of course,
it ends up in the ocean.
I mean, we obviously
see it on the beaches,
but that’s not even your main concern.
It’s what’s actually happening to it
in the oceans. Talk about that.
AF: OK, so look. Thank you, Chris.
About four years ago,
I thought I’d do something
really barking crazy,
and I committed to do a PhD
in marine ecology.
And the scary part about that was,
sure, I learned a lot about marine life,
but it taught me more about marine death
and the extreme mass
ecological fatality of fish,
of marine life, marine mammals,
very close biology to us,
which are dying in the millions
if not trillions that we can’t count
at the hands of plastic.
CA: But people think of plastic
as ugly but stable. Right?
You throw something in the ocean,
“Hey, it’ll just sit there forever.
Can’t do any damage, right?”
AF: See, Chris, it’s an incredible
substance designed for the economy.
It is the worst substance possible
for the environment.
The worst thing about plastics,
as soon as it hits the environment,
is that it fragments.
It never stops being plastic.
It breaks down smaller
and smaller and smaller,
and the breaking science on this, Chris,
which we’ve known in marine ecology
for a few years now,
but it’s going to hit humans.
We are aware now that nanoplastic,
the very, very small particles of plastic,
carrying their negative charge,
can go straight through
the pores of your skin.
That’s not the bad news.
The bad news is that it goes
straight through the blood-brain barrier,
that protective coating which is there
to protect your brain.
Your brain’s a little amorphous, wet mass
full of little electrical charges.
You put a negative particle into that,
particularly a negative particle
which can carry pathogens –
so you have a negative charge,
it attracts positive-charge elements,
like pathogens, toxins,
mercury, lead.
That’s the breaking science
we’re going to see in the next 12 months.
CA: So already I think you told me
that there’s like 600 plastic bags or so
for every fish that size
in the ocean, something like that.
And they’re breaking down,
and there’s going to be ever more of them,
and we haven’t even seen the start
of the consequences of that.
AF: No, we really haven’t.
The Ellen MacArthur Foundation,
they’re a bunch of good scientists,
we’ve been working with them for a while.
I’ve completely verified their work.
They say there will be
one ton of plastic, Chris,
for every three tons
of fish by, not 2050 –
and I really get impatient with people
who talk about 2050 – by 2025.
That’s around the corner.
That’s just the here and now.
You don’t need one ton of plastic
to completely wipe out marine life.
Less than that is going
to do a fine job at it.
So we have to end it straightaway.
We’ve got no time.
CA: OK, so you have an idea for ending it,
and you’re coming at this
not as a typical environmental
campaigner, I would say,
but as a businessman,
as an entrepreneur, who has lived –
you’ve spent your whole life thinking
about global economic systems
and how they work.
And if I understand it right,
your idea depends on heroes
who look something like this.
What’s her profession?
AF: She, Chris, is a ragpicker,
and there were 15, 20 million
ragpickers like her,
until China stopped taking
everyone’s waste.
And the price of plastic,
minuscule that it was, collapsed.
That led to people like her,
which, now – she is a child
who is a schoolchild.
She should be at school.
That’s probably very akin to slavery.
My daughter Grace and I have met
hundreds of people like her.
CA: And there are many adults as well,
literally millions around the world,
and in some industries,
they actually account
for the fact that, for example,
we don’t see a lot
of metal waste in the world.
AF: That’s exactly right.
That little girl is, in fact,
the hero of the environment.
She’s in competition with
a great big petrochemical plant
which is just down the road,
the three-and-a-half-billion-dollar
petrochemical plant.
That’s the problem.
We’ve got more oil and gas
in plastic and landfill
than we have in the entire oil and gas
resources of the United States.
So she is the hero.
And that’s what that landfill looks like,
ladies and gentlemen,
and it’s solid oil and gas.
CA: So there’s huge value
potentially locked up in there
that the world’s ragpickers would,
if they could, make a living from.
But why can’t they?
AF: Because we have ingrained in us
a price of plastic from fossil fuels,
which sits just under what it takes
to economically and profitably
recycle plastic from plastic.
See, all plastic is
is building blocks from oil and gas.
Plastic’s 100 percent polymer,
which is 100 percent oil and gas.
And you know we’ve got
enough plastic in the world
for all our needs.
And when we recycle plastic,
if we can’t recycle it cheaper
than fossil fuel plastic,
then, of course, the world
just sticks to fossil fuel plastic.
CA: So that’s the fundamental problem,
the price of recycled plastic
is usually more
than the price of just buying
it made fresh from more oil.
That’s the fundamental problem.
AF: A slight tweak
of the rules here, Chris.
I’m a commodity person.
I understand that we used to have
scrap metal and rubbish iron
and bits of copper lying
all round the villages,
particularly in the developing world.
And people worked out it’s got a value.
It’s actually an article of value,
not of waste.
Now the villages and the cities
and the streets are clean,
you don’t trip over scrap copper
or scrap iron now,
because it’s an article of value,
it gets recycled.
CA: So what’s your idea, then,
to try to change that in plastics?
AF: OK, so Chris,
for most part of that PhD,
I’ve been doing research.
And the good thing about being
a businessperson who’s done OK at it
is that people want to see you.
Other businesspeople,
even if you’re kind of a bit of a zoo
animal species they’d like to check out,
they’ll say, yeah, OK,
we’ll all meet Twiggy Forrest.
And so once you’re in there,
you can interrogate them.
And I’ve been to most of the oil and gas
and fast-moving consumer good companies
in the world,
and there is a real will to change.
I mean, there’s a couple of dinosaurs
who are going to hope
for the best and do nothing,
but there’s a real will to change.
So what I’ve been discussing is,
the seven and a half billion
people in the world
don’t actually deserve to have
their environment smashed by plastic,
their oceans rendered depauperate
or barren of sea life because of plastic.
So you come down that chain,
and there’s tens of thousands of brands
which we all buy heaps of products from,
but then there’s only a hundred
major resin producers,
big petrochemical plants,
that spew out all the plastic
which is single use.
CA: So one hundred companies
are right at the base
of this food chain, as it were.
AF: Yeah.
CA: And so what do you need
those one hundred companies to do?
AF: OK, so we need them
to simply raise the value
of the building blocks of plastic
from oil and gas,
which I call “bad plastic,”
raise the value of that,
so that when it spreads through the brands
and onto us, the customers,
we won’t barely even notice
an increase in our coffee cup
or Coke or Pepsi, or anything.
CA: Like, what, like a cent extra?
AF: Less. Quarter of a cent, half a cent.
It’ll be absolutely minimal.
But what it does,
it makes every bit of plastic
all over the world an article of value.
Where you have the waste worst,
say Southeast Asia, India,
that’s where the wealth is most.
CA: OK, so it feels like
there’s two parts to this.
One is, if they will charge more money
but carve out that excess
and pay it – into what? –
a fund operated by someone
to tackle this problem of – what?
What would that money be used for,
that they charge the extra for?
AF: So when I speak
to really big businesses,
I say, “Look, I need you to change,
and I need you to change really fast,”
their eyes are going
to peel over in boredom,
unless I say, “And it’s good business.”
“OK, now you’ve got my attention, Andrew.”
So I say, “Right, I need
you to make a contribution
to an environmental
and industry transition fund.
Over two or three years,
the entire global plastics industry
can transition from getting
its building blocks from fossil fuel
to getting its building
blocks from plastic.
The technology is out there.
It’s proven.”
I’ve taken two multibillion-dollar
operations from nothing,
recognizing that
the technology can be scaled.
I see at least a dozen technologies
in plastic to handle all types of plastic.
So once those technologies
have an economic margin,
which this gives them,
that’s where the global public
will get all their plastic from,
from existing plastic.
CA: So every sale of virgin plastic
contributes money to a fund
that is used to basically
transition the industry
and start to pay for things
like cleanup and other pieces.
AF: Absolutely. Absolutely.
CA: And it has
the incredible side benefit,
which is maybe even the main benefit,
of creating a market.
It suddenly makes recyclable plastic
a giant business that can unlock
millions of people around the world
to find a new living collecting it.
AF: Yeah, exactly.
So all you do is, you’ve got fossil
fuel plastics at this value
and recycled plastic at this value.
You change it.
So recycled plastic is cheaper.
What I love about this most, Chris,
is that, you know,
we waste into the environment
300, 350 million tons of plastic.
On the oil and gas companies own accounts,
it’s going to grow to 500 million tons.
This is an accelerating problem.
But every ton of that is polymer.
Polymer is 1,000 dollars,
1,500 dollars a ton.
That’s half a trillion dollars
which could go into business
and could create jobs and opportunities
and wealth right across the world,
particularly in the most impoverished.
Yet we throw it away.
CA: So this would allow the big companies
to invest in recycling plants
literally all over the world –
AF: All over the world.
Because the technology
is low-capital cost,
you can put it in at rubbish dumps,
at the bottom of big hotels,
garbage depots, everywhere,
turn that waste into resin.
CA: Now, you’re a philanthropist,
and you’re ready to commit
some of your own wealth to this.
What is the role of philanthropy
in this project?
AF: I think what we have to do
is kick in the 40 to 50 million US dollars
to get it going,
and then we have to create
absolute transparency
so everyone can see
exactly what’s going on.
From the resin producers
to the brands to the consumers,
everyone gets to see
who is playing the game,
who is protecting the Earth,
and who doesn’t care.
And that’ll cost about
a million dollars a week,
and we’re going to underwrite
that for five years.
Total contribution is circa
300 million US dollars.
CA: Wow.
Now –
(Applause)
You’ve talked to other companies,
like to the Coca-Colas of this world,
who are willing to do this,
they’re willing to pay a higher price,
they would like to pay a higher price,
so long as it’s fair.
AF: Yeah, it’s fair.
So, Coca-Cola wouldn’t
like Pepsi to play ball
unless the whole world knew
that Pepsi wasn’t playing ball.
Then they don’t care.
So it’s that transparency of the market
where, if people try and cheat the system,
the market can see it,
the consumers can see it.
The consumers want a role to play in this.
Seven and a half billion of us.
We don’t want our world smashed
by a hundred companies.
CA: Well, so tell us, you’ve said
what the companies can do
and what you’re willing to do.
What can people listening do?
AF: OK, so I would like all of us,
all around the world,
to go a website called noplasticwaste.org.
You contact your hundred resin producers
which are in your region.
You will have at least one
within an email or Twitter
or a telephone contact from you,
and let them know that you would like them
to make a contribution to a fund
which industry can manage
or the World Bank can manage.
It raises tens of billions
of dollars per year
so you can transition the industry
to getting all its plastic from plastic,
not from fossil fuel.
We don’t need that.
That’s bad. This is good.
And it can clean up the environment.
We’ve got enough capital there,
we’ve got tens of billions
of dollars, Chris, per annum
to clean up the environment.
CA: You’re in the recycling business.
Isn’t this a conflict of interest for you,
or rather, a huge business
opportunity for you?
AF: Yeah, look, I’m in
the iron ore business,
and I compete against
the scrap metal business,
and that’s why you don’t have
any scrap lying around to trip over,
and cut your toe on,
because it gets collected.
CA: This isn’t your excuse
to go into the plastic recycling business.
AF: No, I am going to cheer for this boom.
This will be the internet
of plastic waste.
This will be a boom industry
which will spread all over the world,
and particularly where poverty is worst
because that’s where the rubbish is most,
and that’s the resource.
So I’m going to cheer for it
and stand back.
CA: Twiggy, we’re in an era
where so many people around the world
are craving a new, regenerative economy,
these big supply chains,
these big industries,
to fundamentally transform.
It strikes me as a giant idea,
and you’re going to need a lot of people
cheering you on your way
to make it happen.
Thank you for sharing this with us.
AF: Thank you very much. Thank you, Chris.
(Applause)