6 essential lessons for women leaders Julia Gillard and Ngozi OkonjoIweala
Julia Gillard: Ngozi, 10 years ago
when I became prime minister of Australia,
I assumed that at the start,
there would be a strong reaction
to me being the first woman,
but it would abide over time
and then I would be treated the same
as every other Prime Minister had been.
I was so wrong.
That didn’t happen.
The longer I governed,
the more visible the sexism became.
I don’t want any other woman
to be blindsided like that.
That’s why I’m so excited
about working with you
to help women get ready to lead
in what is still a sexist world.
Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala: I share
that sense of excitement.
After I was finance minister of Nigeria,
I was overwhelmed by the number of women
who wanted me to be their mentor.
It is terrific that aspiring, young women
are keen to learn from those
who have gone before,
but there are still
too few female role models,
especially women of color.
Now as a result of the work
we have done together,
I can offer everyone clear,
standout lessons
that are based not just
on my own experience,
but on the global research
on women and leadership
and the candid insights of leading women.
JG: One of the things to share
is that there’s joy in being a leader –
in having the opportunity
to put your values into action.
Emphasizing the positive
makes a real difference
to the power of role modeling.
If we only focus on the sexist
and negative experiences,
women may decide that being a leader
sounds so grim they don’t want to do it.
On the other hand,
if we pretend it’s all rosy and easy,
women and girls can be put off
because they decide leadership
is only for superwomen
who never have any problems.
We all have to get the balance right,
but Ngozi, it’s impossible to talk
about role models right now
without asking you:
how does it make you feel
to see Kamala Harris elected
as vice president?
NOI: I’m delighted.
It’s important to the aspiration
of girls and women
that they see role models
they can relate to.
Vice President-elect Harris
is exactly that kind of role model,
particularly for girls and women of color.
And every woman who steps forward
makes more space
for the women who come next.
JG: Of course both of us know
from our own experiences
that even when women get to the top,
unfortunately, too much time
and attention will be spent
on what they look like
rather than what they do and say.
Ngozi, for women,
is it still all about the hair?
NOI: Certainly, Julia.
I laughed when Hillary Clinton
said she envied my dress style,
and particularly my signature scarf,
so I don’t need to worry about my hair.
Like many of our women leaders,
I’ve effectively adopted a uniform.
It’s a colorful one,
it’s African, it’s me.
I have developed my own style
that I wear every day
and I don’t vary from it.
That has helped protect me
from endless discussion
of my appearance.
It’s helped me to get people
to listen to my words,
not look at my clothes.
JG: Hillary told us
she lost the equivalent
of 24 full days of campaign time
in the 2016 election
getting her hair and makeup
done every day.
But actually, contemporary problems
for women leaders go far deeper
than anything to do with looks.
I’d better warn you now,
I’m about to use a word
many people would find rude.
My favorite funny moment in our travels
was discussing “resting bitch face”
with Prime Minister
Erna Solberg of Norway.
The global research shows that if a man
comes across as strong, ambitious,
even self-seeking,
that’s fine,
but if a woman does it,
then the reactions against her
can be as visceral as revulsion
or contempt.
They’re pretty mind-bogglingly strong
words, aren’t they?
NOI: They certainly are,
and women leaders
talk about it intuitively,
understanding that to be viewed
as acceptable as a leader,
they have to stay balanced on a tightrope
between strength and empathy.
If they come across as too tough,
they’re viewed as hard and unlikeable.
But if they come across as too soft,
they seem to be lacking
the backbone needed to lead.
JG: The problem is we still all have
sexist stereotypes
whirring in the back of our brains.
I was portrayed as out of touch
because I don’t have children.
I was even compared
to a barren cow in the bush,
destined to be killed for hamburger mince.
NOI: That’s horrible
that you faced that stereotype.
While I was worried that people
would think I couldn’t do my job
when my family was young,
I enjoyed talking to New Zealand’s
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern
about her experience
as the second woman ever
to have a child while being
a national leader.
I was very taken by her saying
she doesn’t think she gets
the work-life balance right,
in the sense that she doesn’t
like the word “balance,”
and there’s always guilt.
She just makes it work.
JG: Ngozi, where are men in this?
NOI: Hopefully, manning up.
Men can more equitably share
domestic and care work.
They can point out
sexism when they see it.
They can make space for women
and mentor and sponsor them.
Given that men disproportionately
still have the power,
we won’t see change
unless they work with us
to create a world that will be better
for men and women.
JG: Let’s talk about
the “glass cliff” phenomenon.
If a business or
an organization is going well,
then they’re likely
to appoint a new leader
who looks a lot like the old one –
that is, a man.
But if they are in difficulties,
they decide it’s time
to get someone quite different,
and often reach for a woman.
To take one example,
Christine Lagarde became the first woman
to lead the International Monetary Fund
when it was in crisis after its former
head was arrested for sexual assault.
Ngozi, while not as dramatic as that,
you know a bit about glass cliffs too.
NOI: I certainly do.
I remember clearly being chosen,
as a young woman,
to lead a very problematic
World Bank project in Rwanda.
No one else wanted to lead it,
lest they fail.
So there was this attitude
of “if she pulls it off, it’s OK.
If she fails, then, well,
she’s just a young African woman
whose career doesn’t matter that much.”
From that experience,
I learned things
about myself and leadership,
and the biggest lesson
we can share is this:
if you have a sense of purpose
that drives you,
then aim high –
become a leader.
And make room as you go.
Former US Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright is fond of saying
that there’s a special place in hell
for women who don’t support women.
In this world,
we need to be there for each other.
JG: There’s a bit of good news
and bad news here.
Certainly the research shows
that the stereotype
about the businesswoman
who makes it to the top
and then stops other women coming through
isn’t borne out by the facts.
The constraint seems to be
that organizations think
once they’ve got a woman or two,
they don’t need to worry
about gender anymore.
But we do have to be frank –
women do get pitted against other women
for the limited number
of seats at the table.
We have to be wary of having
our solidarity with each other eroded
by these politics of scarcity.
Instead, we should work together
to change the rules
that keep us at the margins.
NOI: So to summarize,
our standout lessons are …
Number one, there’s no right way
to be a woman leader.
Be true to yourself.
JG: Number two,
we know that women leaders
face sexism and stereotyping,
so sit down with your mentors,
sponsors, best supporters and friends
and war-game.
How are you going to deal
with the gendered moments,
with being judged on your appearance,
with being assumed to be a bit of a bitch
or with your family choices questioned?
Forewarned is forearmed.
NOI: Number three,
let everyone you know
talking about gender stereotypes
and debunking them:
these false assumptions can’t survive
being held up to the light of day.
JG: Number four,
there are structural barriers too.
Don’t wait until you need help
balancing work and family life
or to be fairly evaluated for promotion.
Be a supporter of systems and changes
that aid gender equality
even if you don’t personally
need them immediately.
NOI: Number five,
don’t take a backwards step.
Don’t shy away from taking up
space in the world.
Don’t assume you’re too junior
or people are too busy.
Reach out, network.
JG: That’s great advice,
and leads us to the most
important lesson of all –
go for it.
NOI: Yes, go for it.
JG: (Laughs) Thank you.
NOI: Thank you.